stubbies

[Mer]

I noticed that my local climbing store was selling off their 10 cm ice screws and then I heard that MEC was doing the same with the 10 and 13 cm. It makes me wonder why. I would have thought that if the choices were: nothing, a tied-off screw, a stubby, I’d be happy to choose the stubby. But maybe they’re really the equivalent of nothing. Anyone ever seen any data or have a genuine experience with the smallest sizes? Just to clarify, this is an actual query about stubby ice screws, although I see that “how small is too small to bother with?” is probably a ridiculous question to post to this list.

thanks anyway

 

[freeclimb9]

As I understand it, BD developed the 10cm ice-screw for the thin-ice of Maple Canyon (which, when there's enough snow to yield melt-off and subsequent ice, is amazing. But the top-outs are still often thin). I've climbed next to BD engineer types there, and one guy used the stubbies exclusively, and managed placements times of less than 20 seconds.

In good ice, they're supposed to hold pretty well since holding power depends greatly on the threads. I place them with confidence in good ice when high on a pitch (i.e. when there's plenty of rope stretch to minimize fall factor). If the ice blows out in a fall, you're hosed (in other words, the edge of a bulge might not be the best place to put short screws). The 13cm screws have slightly more threads than the 17cm and 22cm screws, so --theoretically-- they'll hold as well, or better, than the long screws.

For crap ice, though, I put in a long screw in a downward direction.

[Highlander]

Use ice pitons instead, there way more bomber.

[Dru]

They are selling them off and then not carrying any more?

 

A short screw sunk to the hanger is much more bomber than a tied-off. Plus, short is faster to place so good for a panic piece.

 

If they are getting rid of them for safety reasons wonder how come they still carry Spectre type hooks?

[Cpt.Caveman]

All this talk about ice , screwing, bongs and stubbies. Is this a porn chatroom

[Ade]

I think evenyone is selling off their BD screws as BD have improved the design for this season making the old ones obsolete.

 

I use stubbies quite a bit in New England where there is lots of thin, hard and well bonded ice. Stubbies plus a screamer make a good combination. In WA and to a certain extent in SW BC they're less useful as thin ice, when you find it, isn't of good enough quality to take a decent short screw.

[mattp]

"thin ice, when you find it, isn't of good enough quality to take a decent short screw"

 

Often true if you are talking about the popular ice climbs at relatively low elevations like LowQuality Pass or Icicle Creek but not so true if you are talking about alpine routes higher in the Cascades. I like to have at least one on my rack when going for a technical peak climb.

[Cpt.Caveman]

I like smaller length pro when the ice is thin. I only have one though. But it's all I've ever needed. Mostly tie offs I use are in alpine so far. But there is sometimes rock pro then too....

[Dru]

I have placed stubbies more often than 22cms, I only have 1 of those and rarely use it (mostly just for anchors) but i have 1x10 and 3x13cm and place those on pretty much every climb.

[fleblebleb]

I bought the last Grivel stubby on sale at Feathered Friends (nyah nyah nyah ) but they still had two or three BD Express stubby ones left at 20% off, and a bunch of longer simple hanger BD ones, also 20% off. Also had Charlet Moser 18 cm screws with a simple hanger for $18, that's a pretty good price...

[Mer]

Good, this all makes sense. Carry an assortment, make the best of what's available. I just didn't want thoughts of dubious budget pro to intrude while I was climbing above it. But stubbies have their place, of course they do. (except a 10 cm express screw, that's just goofy.)

[Cpt.Caveman]

I'd climb (have climbed) over a 10cm ice screw if it was all I could get and or I thought the ice was solid. It's not unheard of to find that either. Either way you could tie off a longer one anyway..

[Dru]

But stubbies have their place, of course they do. (except a 10 cm express screw, that's just goofy.)

 

Except when you need a piece in to quell the shaking REAL QUICK and you dont have a Spectre, cause it only takes ~5 seconds to place a 10cm Express. Drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrzip!

[fleblebleb]

There is a BD test report out there somewhere, about simulated falls on screws in a somewhat controlled setting, that shows short screws to be every bit as reliable in good ice - and followed by the usual disclaimers about "good" ice. I'm sure most of you have seen this. Anyway it makes perfect sense - if the ice is good enough for a downwards slanting screw to be stronger than an upwards slanting one, then the threads provide the stick mostly, and a short screw has as much thread surface as a longer one. If on the other hand the ice isn't "good" then the screw needs to be angled more upwards and effectively starts working more like a picket or something

[pindude]

Testing and report done by ex-BD QA engineer Chris Harmston. Further testing also done by Craig Luebben of Climbing mag and author of How to Ice Climb. Bottom line, 17-cm screws hold almost as well as 22's. 10-cm screws hold well too, given all are in good ice. Duplication of part of table from CH's study and report (sorry, couldn't figure out how to center columns):

Length - # Samples - Ave. (lbs.)

22 cm - 86 - 5006

17 cm - 113 - 4853

10 cm - 63 - 4279

 

So, your rack should consist mostly of 17-cm screws, a few 10's, and perhaps at least a couple or more 22's for the belay anchors.

 

And angle down the screw (10-15 deg) only in good ice, for screws with DEEP threads. My older, inexpensive Climb High Russian Titaniums, with shorter thread depth, I always angle up, and bring along mostly as "leavers."

[David_Parker]

I always thought paying the extra $ for the "express" feature on a 10 cm screw rediculous! By the time you have it threaded, your only about 2-3 twists from it being in to the hilt anyway. I like having at least one or 2 stubbies when I know there is going to be thin ice or the need to place a desperate screw where there is excellent ice. I mostly use the 13's and 17's and carry the 22's for belay and making billybobs (abalakov anchors).

[Ade]

So, your rack should consist mostly of 17-cm screws, a few 10's, and perhaps at least a couple or more 22's for the belay anchors.

 

Nope. Just like rock climbing it depends on the route. Big fat pillar lots of 17s and maybe the odd 22 (I like them because they give me big psyche when I place them before launching onto big steep sections, they're also good for belays and making threads). I have a bunch of 10s and 13s for thin stuff in New England.

[Beck]

stubbies will stick around, for all the reasons the above posters have mentioned, thin ice, adequate hold, faster placement. The Ushba "Ice Sphincter" will probably stay around as well, there is no getting rid of marginal placement pieces (look at RURPs and new, smaller, zero cams)

but the technology in design is what is driving the sale prices.

BD is leading the way in ice screw technology, the new "turbo" express vs express is largely a matter of thread pitch/depth/ spacing and a modified reverse taper on the interior, outplaces the other manufacturers way bad! faster placements, (relatively)solid hold, easier core removal.

i'm betting the BD designers are running computer simulations on some super Artif. intell./artif. real. computers to find better equipment designs, before even thinking about producing a prototype.

 

[Lambone]

I'd prefer a stubby in bad ice over nothing. The way I see it, maybe it will slow you down a bit and help prevent your good screws from blowing, or at least keep you from cratering at full velocity.

[pindude]

Ade, at first I wasn't sure what you were saying "nope" to, as I didn't realize 13-cm screws are now commonly available as of this year, at least from BD. In fact, BD no longer makes 17-cm screws, their sizes with the new Turbo screws are now 10, 13, 16, 19, & 22. You can still get 17's with the older BD regular and express screws that are left over and are on sale ($29.95 regular, $39.95 express), either through your local shop or directly from BD mail order. BD MO is out of the 17-cm old regulars but does have 17s with the Express handle.

 

So now I'd like to see the old Harmston and Raleigh tests done with the new 13- and 16-cm sizes. If some were wondering about using a "stubby" vs. 17- or 22-cm sizes, now people can be really confused!

 

To correct what I posted before, and at least as far as BD screws go, it seems to me that one would want one or two of each of the smaller sized 10s and 13s--for when you've got to get a screw in really quick or more likely when you've got shallow placements, as its better to have the eye flush rather than a sling girthed on the shaft . If using BD exclusively, I think one should have a concentration of 16s and 19s, with some 22s for V-threads and belay anchors.