A Scout is:

[ivan]

well put. and indeed, the scout call to "bravery" is exemplified by the scouts who've questioned the ban against aetheism and gays when clearly the vast majority of folks would rather hide behidn kk's advice.

[tvashtarkatena]

And that would be a real tragedy for millions of kids that get their start in the outdoors, as I did, through Scouting. It was one of the highlights of growing up.

[ivan]

order of the arrow, now there's gay entrapment! dropped the lot of us off in the boonies in the freezing cold darkness w/ nothing but our clothes on and told us to make it through the night!

 

remember folks, when homo-huddling, it ain't gay if you don't open your eyes

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Things change. If the Scouts don't, they will become irrelevant or viewed as bigoted. Ignoring that isn't going to help the Scouts.

 

People have been saying that for at least 30 years w/r/t gays and atheists in Scouting, and Scouting still exists.

 

My point is not that you can't change them, however, if you know the organization requires a faith in a higher being, you join anyways, than make a big deal about being an atheist and complain about how the Scouts will not allow this, then you should not be surprised to be kicked out. Moreover, if you just go with the flow, most likely you'll be able to participate because there are very few times you'll be grilled on your belief in God - at least that was my experience, YMMV

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

well put. and indeed, the scout call to "bravery" is exemplified by the scouts who've questioned the ban against aetheism and gays when clearly the vast majority of folks would rather hide behidn kk's advice.

 

I believe 'trustworthy' and 'courteous' require honesty as well, no? I don't believe 'but you can fake it if it benefits you' has been added to the oath lately. Scouting IS changing as we speak - because of folks who won't accept injustice, including the two board members who brought up gay discrimination issue (that's how this all came about, BTW - top down). Better for Scouting, better for Scouts, better for us all, really.

 

Not hard.

Edited February 8, 2013 by tvashtarkatena

[KaskadskyjKozak]

well put. and indeed, the scout call to "bravery" is exemplified by the scouts who've questioned the ban against aetheism and gays when clearly the vast majority of folks would rather hide behidn kk's advice.

 

or the call to "bravery" is to stand up to social engineering thugs like yourself that try to force YOUR view of morality on an organization who views things differently.

 

[ivan]

Things change. If the Scouts don't, they will become irrelevant or viewed as bigoted. Ignoring that isn't going to help the Scouts.

 

People have been saying that for at least 30 years w/r/t gays and atheists in Scouting, and Scouting still exists.

 

My point is not that you can't change them, however, if you know the organization requires a faith in a higher being, you join anyways, than make a big deal about being an atheist and complain about how the Scouts will not allow this, then you should not be surprised to be kicked out. Moreover, if you just go with the flow, most likely you'll be able to participate because there are very few times you'll be grilled on your belief in God - at least that was my experience, YMMV

 

strange i know, but most 9 year olds haven't quite sorted out their theologies yet

[tvashtarkatena]

well put. and indeed, the scout call to "bravery" is exemplified by the scouts who've questioned the ban against aetheism and gays when clearly the vast majority of folks would rather hide behidn kk's advice.

 

or the call to "bravery" is to stand up to social engineering thugs like yourself that try to force YOUR view of morality on an organization who views things differently.

 

You just described the Civil War. Was THAT worth it?

 

Yup.

 

Equal treatment isn't exactly what I'd call a 'thug's view', it being in our Bill o Rights, n all. I think it might be one of those basic American values or somethin.

Edited February 8, 2013 by tvashtarkatena

[KaskadskyjKozak]

strange i know, but most 9 year olds haven't quite sorted out their theologies yet

 

9?? That would be Cub Scouts

[ivan]

well put. and indeed, the scout call to "bravery" is exemplified by the scouts who've questioned the ban against aetheism and gays when clearly the vast majority of folks would rather hide behidn kk's advice.

 

or the call to "bravery" is to stand up to social engineering thugs like yourself that try to force YOUR view of morality on an organization who views things differently.

thug, that's a good one for describing me

 

i'm not in the scouts any longer so have no dog in this fight until such time as my boy asks about it - i feel i can teach him pretty well meself the things i learned there that i still value - i am uncomfortable w/ government messing w/ private associations, but then my understanding is much of the current pressure on the bsa is coming from its own members and from the community in general, not the obama-llama

 

i suppose you could easily label lincoln a "social-engineering thug," but then you'd be on the wrong side of history - allowing all humanoids equality, both of opportunity and before the law, seems like such a no-brainer in a democracy that i'm really at a loss to understand those who need it explained...

[tvashtarkatena]

I joined BSA at age 9, but I do realize that it's probably a lot better to discriminate against 10 and 11 year olds, you know, from a moral standpoint.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

i'm not in the scouts any longer so have no dog in this fight until such time as my boy asks about it - i feel i can teach him pretty well meself the things i learned there that i still value - i am uncomfortable w/ government messing w/ private associations,

 

Let's end on some common ground, tovarishch

[ivan]

strange i know, but most 9 year olds haven't quite sorted out their theologies yet

 

9?? That would be Cub Scouts

jesus, whatever, it's all the same organization. i did the gambit from age 7ish to 17, and the religious part did in fact help push me away...

[KaskadskyjKozak]

strange i know, but most 9 year olds haven't quite sorted out their theologies yet

 

9?? That would be Cub Scouts

jesus, whatever, it's all the same organization. i did the gambit from age 7ish to 17, and the religious part did in fact help push me away...

 

Well, I remember nothing at all about religion in the Cub Scouts. It was all about what amounted to "play dates" with your friends, and if you were lucky home-made cookies from your Den Mother. Yeah, that and the Pine-Wood Derby.

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

PS Ivan: If my translieration is correct, 'soshul engineering' is Double Plus Bad Old Speak in far Right circles.

 

Only a thug would take a gay kid hiking, I will admit that.

 

"Patrick Fitzmichael, WILL YOU STOP REARRANGING THOSE WILDFLOWERS!!!!"

[tvashtarkatena]

strange i know, but most 9 year olds haven't quite sorted out their theologies yet

 

9?? That would be Cub Scouts

jesus, whatever, it's all the same organization. i did the gambit from age 7ish to 17, and the religious part did in fact help push me away...

 

Well, I remember nothing at all about religion in the Cub Scouts. It was all about what amounted to "play dates" with your friends, and if you were lucky home-made cookies from your Den Mother. Yeah, that and the Pine-Wood Derby.

 

 

You were a Cub Scout?

 

Holy shit, I knew you were a pussy, but seriously...

 

Even at 9 I knew you just didn't join the Cub Scouts

Edited February 8, 2013 by tvashtarkatena

[ivan]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57568392/boy-scouts-face-pressure-before-vote-on-no-gays-policy/

 

you'll note in the article the pressure on the scouts, both for and against their policy, is all from other private associations of citizens - the obama-llama is quoted as saying he thinks the ban sucks, but there's no gov organization going after them.

 

here's a question: what would jefferson smith say?

[tvashtarkatena]

SCOTUS has already ruled, but the case served to highlight the discrimination. The BSA may have technically 'won' in court in 2000, but the word was out and the damage done. They will eventually lose the war.

 

Their only way out of this mess, which will continue to grow, will be to go with the tide of social justice, now or in the future, and drop their disciminatory policies. Their funding and membership will continue to dry up, otherwise. That's been an issue of great concern for them.

Edited February 8, 2013 by tvashtarkatena

[olyclimber]

The Boy Scouts of America is based on Baden Powell's Scout Association. From their wiki page:

 

"Scouting in Great Britain and Northern Ireland is open to all faiths and variations to the Scout Promise are allowed in order to accommodate those of different religious obligations or national allegiances.[7] The Scout Association does not permit an atheist version of the Promise, or a lack of any sort of faith or religion in the programme, which has attracted criticism from the National Secular Society (NSS) and the British Humanist Association,[8] but in 2012 the Scout Association began plans to create an alternative Promise without references to God.[9]"

 

Looks like even atheists will be let into the parent org.

 

What really burns me about this is what about agnostics???? Fuckers.

[ivan]

or they can double-down and join forces with chick fil-a?

[ivan]

baden powell thought "mein kampf" was a great book and recomended everone to read it, so i'm pretty well passed accepting him as a moral authority

 

think he also got his chops in the boer war, another less than honorable endeavour...

[KaskadskyjKozak]

the obama-llama is quoted as saying he thinks the ban sucks, but there's no gov organization going after them.

 

Who said the gov't was going after them? Social Engineering Thugs come in many forms, but mostly manifest themselves as Lawyers and/or members of the ACLU

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

About a third of all American Scout troops are sponsored by the LDS.

 

Guess it's not much of a secret why they've chosen to hold the gay line of late.

 

LDS has also been a major donor for anti gay campaigns all over the country, most famously CA prop 8 to rescind a previously passed marital equality law.

Edited February 8, 2013 by tvashtarkatena

[tvashtarkatena]

the obama-llama is quoted as saying he thinks the ban sucks, but there's no gov organization going after them.

 

Who said the gov't was going after them? Social Engineering Thugs come in many forms, but mostly manifest themselves as Lawyers and/or members of the ACLU

 

 

You'd be surprised how good a hot, young civil right attorney looks in jack boots, particularly when those jackboots are crushing the nuts of some unprepared Kristian counselor who pulled his legal theories out of the Book of Job. Smart is, indeed, sexy.

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2013 by tvashtarkatena

[ivan]

Social Engineering Thugs come in many forms, but mostly manifest themselves as Lawyers and/or members of the ACLU

 

hmm...pretty sure the aclu ain't part of the governmetn, just a buncha private citizens dedicated to making the government due what it's supposed to, by the rules.