Islam

[RobBob]

This is one of the most troubling incidents I've read about. I have hesitated to post about this after I found it a two months ago. I was trying to convince someone I know not to go to Saudi, and looking for supporting evidence. Well, I found it. You can read the summary here (warning, it is disturbing): (summary story of William Sampson)

 

The Hell of it is that bin Laden is the westerners' suspect in this. This guy is a climber, too, because somewhere on the web I saw a pic of him and his father on an Alpine summit. Very troubling.

 

[z]

Death to Islam

[Peter_Puget]

Ibn Khaldun (d. 1406), perhaps the preeminent Islamic scholar in history, summarized five centuries of prior Muslim jurisprudence with regard to the uniquely Islamic institution of jihad:

In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the [Muslim] mission and [the obligation to] convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force... The other religious groups did not have a universal mission, and the holy war was not a religious duty for them, save only for purposes of defense... Islam is under obligation to gain power over other nations.

 

During the modern era, between 1894-96, the Ottoman Turks massacred over 200,000 Christian Armenians, followed by the first formal genocide of the 20th century, in 1915, at which time they slaughtered an additional 600,000 to 800,000 Armenians. Contemporary accounts from European diplomats confirm that these brutal massacres were perpetrated in the context of a formal jihad against the Armenians who had attempted to throw off the yoke of dhimmitude by seeking equal rights and autonomy. For example, the Chief Dragoman (Turkish-speaking interpreter) of the British embassy reported regarding the 1894-96 massacres:

[The perpetrators] are guided in their general action by the prescriptions of the Sheri [sharia] Law. That law prescribes that if the "rayah" [dhimmi] Christian attempts, by having recourse to foreign powers, to overstep the limits of privileges allowed them by their Mussulman [Muslim] masters, and free themselves from their bondage, their lives and property are to be forfeited, and are at the mercy of the Mussulmans. To the Turkish mind the Armenians had tried to overstep those limits by appealing to foreign powers, especially England. They therefore considered it their religious duty and a righteous thing to destroy and seize the lives and properties of the Armenians"

 

Sufi Islam as practiced in the Indian subcontinent was quite intolerant of Hinduism, as documented by the Indian scholar K. S. Lal (The Legacy of Muslim Rule in India [1992], p. 237):

The Muslim Mushaikh [sufi spiritual leaders] were as keen on conversions as the Ulama, and contrary to general belief, in place of being kind to the Hindus as saints would, they too wished the Hindus to be accorded a second class citizenship if they were not converted. Only one instance, that of Shaikh Abdul Quddus Gangoh, need be cited because he belonged to the Chishtia Silsila considered to be the most tolerant of all Sufi groups. He wrote letters to the Sultan Sikandar Lodi, Babur, and Humayun to re-invigorate the Shariat [sharia] and reduce the Hindus to payers of land tax and jizya. To Babur he wrote, "Extend utmost patronage and protection to theologians and mystics... that they should be maintained and subsidized by the state... No non-Muslim should be given any office or employment in the Diwan of Islam... Furthermore, in conformity with the principles of the Shariat they should be subjected to all types of indignities and humiliations. They should be made to pay the jizya...They should be disallowed from donning the dress of the Muslims and should be forced to keep their Kufr [infidelity] concealed and not to perform the ceremonies of their Kufr openly and freely; They should not be allowed to consider themselves the equal to the Muslims."

 

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

Just for the potential future edification of any interested parties, there is a special about Islam airing on PBS December 18th. You know, if you want to, like, learn some stuff about Muslims without, like, reading, you know, uh, like, like books and stuff or whatever. Yeah.

 

Oh, and Ramadan is over, so you can all eat today! Salaam alekum!

[Jim]

I think that Peter's summary of some fanatic Islamic interpretation of of the Koran are prime examples of reglion used for slanted purposes, I would argure that there is nothing inherent in Islam, or any other religion. Just lots of folks willing to justify their actions.

 

And actually Islam has no corner on the violence market. Need we mention the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Puritans, the violent right-to-life movement, etc. If you look at the history of occupation in Jerusalam the Islamic rulers were much more accommodating of other religions compared to the Jews and Christians. Gotta love those Buddhists-

[RobBob]

what did the Pilgrims do?

[Greg_W]

Salem Witch Trials ring a bell? Your post shows your obvious endorsement of anti-witch behavior and pro-puritanical fanaticism.

[E-rock]

The PURITANS dude, they burned witches and killed injuns and shit.

[E-rock]

Goddamn it GregW that's 2 days in a row you've beat me to the punch with the same response as mine.

[sk]

they pretty much called any woman that didn't live like they wanted her to a witch... all woman healers mid wives and pretty much any woman that read something other than the bible was called a witch and burned... bad time to be born a girl.

[Greg_W]

Hey, it's my ergonomic Microsoft keyboard - it's FAST!!!

[Peter_Puget]

The greatest PBS documentary joke ever was the showing of the film "Harvest of Sorrow" Basically a documentary of Robert Conquest's research into the terror famines in the Soviet Union. I remember distinctly how due to the controversial nature of the film they had a "well reasoned" board discuss how "one-sided" it was and so on. A blue ribbon panel of experts (wanker intellectuals) in essence showed how fucked up the film was. Of course with the fall of the Soviet Union the Conquest's scholarship was completely vindicated. Somewhere I read a listing showing how these same experts were still being called upon to help clarify and explain current Russian US relations. Think about this: estimates vary but at least as many were starved in the Ukraine as died in the Gas Chambers and these freaking experts denied the whole thing! Some estimates go as high as 11million died.

 

The story (this part perhaps not entirely true but still possible to those who have read RCs works he is also a poet)goes continues with Conquest's publisher wanted to reprint his work but wanting him to create a new title. His response was said to be something along the lines of: "I told you fucking so!"

 

Given the incredibly PC and highly politicized nature of so called ME studies" programs I would expect any PBS show to be nothing more than another collection of this same type of expert.

 

[Greg_W]

Demi Moore as Hester Prin in "Scarlet Letter" was smokin' hot. Had hot, pilgrim fantasies for months after that one.

[E-rock]

Holy shit I've never seen that, I'm renting it tonight.

[sk]

I was just thinking ths scalet letter... but the story not the movie

 

That was an increadibly curel time... and interesting to me how the things they put women threw then sound remarkbly like what the women of Afganhstan are dealing with now

[E-rock]

Interesting that you should bring up Afghanistan in a discussion of the Scarlet Letter which was intended more as a criticism of Mcarthyism (sp) than of as a literal criticism of the salem witch trials. But now that I wrote this what the fuck is my point, witches bad, Mcarthy bad, Afghanistan bad. I'm going to work.

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

Work bad, too. Internet goooood.

[E-rock]

DFA = the voice of Satan, look I'm still here because of you.

[RobBob]

Workin' & postin' is hell.

 

A few witches...and I don't think the Puritans did anything to the indians that the rest of the European settlers didn't do. And the indians did their share of first strikes as well. Not the same thing, my friends.

[Peter_Puget]

Quote

"I think that Peter's summary of some fanatic Islamic interpretation of of the Koran are prime examples of reglion used for slanted purposes, I would argure that there is nothing inherent in Islam, or any other religion. Just lots of folks willing to justify their actions."

 

Response:

I would argue that is just completely in error. First you claim my first quote is a fanatic interpretation of Islam. Since you know this to be true can you respond without delay to outside reference the person I am quoting's place in Islamic philosophy? In the second part of your statement you say that there is nothing inherent in any religion? What you are really saying that "ideas" have no power? No effect on how we act? Unfortunately such a train of thought is nothing but nonsense.

 

Quote:

"And actually Islam has no corner on the violence market"

 

Response:

Never said it did. Your "look at the Crusades", "look at anti abortion" mode of debate reminds me of my two girls each blaming the other when they are caught doing something wrong.

 

The sad fact is ideas and cultures do matter. To deny this is simply silly chatter. As far as religion being malleable I would agree and the funny thing is the best example of that to my mind has always been Buddhism in Japan.

 

[Peter_Puget]

Here are some Ibn links:

one

two

three

 

I say check these out. They are from diverse groups.

 

This site always cracks me up!

[Muir_on_Saturday]

look folks, people are evil. it doesn't matter if they're white, black, red, christian, muslim, atheist, democrat etcetera and so forth, it is all just a different wrapper on the same nasty candy. it's basic human biology to screw the jones'. there may have been some good people (or apelike humans) once, but our ancestors killed them before they had a chance to reproduce, so their genes are no longer with us. that's what natural selection does for a species.

 

 

[MtnGoat]

"And actually Islam has no corner on the violence market."

 

Not historically, no. But since the reformation of Christianity began in the middle ages, with the birth of humanistic thought in beginning to influence what were then Christian radicals like St Francis, Christianity has changed.

 

Whatever parity existed in violence of either religion in the past, has long since faded, especially in the 20th century where violence *specifically* called for by the bulk of members of Christianity has basically dropped off the charts.

 

A few isolated instances of lone wackos killing abortion doctors, or even the atrocities in the Balkans, simply does not match the proven propensity of modern Muslims to continue to wage large scale violence, against each other *and* against Christians, notably in Africa and now against the "infidel" west.

 

We can discuss historical actions of centuries all we like, but IMO what remains germane today is who we must deal with today under the conditions we must deal with them today.

 

Christianity has changed, yet enough Muslims clearly exist who support war for Islam right now, today, on terms consistent with their view of Islam as the only proper religion. You will find precious few, if any, Christians who support war against Muslims simply because of their Muslim views, instead of because of Muslim violence which must be stopped. As with other issues, we're not here on this planet able to work with the perfect vs the imperfect, we're stuck choosing between bad, or worse.

 

And right now, the acts being committed and sanctioned by many Muslim followers, based on *their* interpretation of Islam, reveal precisely what that interpretation is. Wether or not it includes all Muslims is a side issue, because wether or not all Muslims believe in these fundamental interpretations, some of them do, and those people are killing us.

[MtnGoat]

"I think that Peter's summary of some fanatic Islamic interpretation of of the Koran are prime examples of reglion used for slanted purposes, I would argure that there is nothing inherent in Islam, or any other religion. Just lots of folks willing to justify their actions."

 

It doesn't matter how slanted we find it, or that some other Muslims don't agree with them, because those bent on slaughtering us *do* believe it, for whatever reason.

 

We are in a religious war, between some believers of a violent interpretation of Islam and those who do not wish to live under that interpretation.

 

 

[RobBob]

Everyone boycott the Goat until he reveals himself to us in the Personality Profile.