Islam

[Muir_on_Saturday]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr Flash Amazing:

quote:

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Originally posted by Muir on Saturday:

1) organized religion is evil.

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Remember: think first, then speak!

 

"2) i keep hearing arabs everywhere say the are not against the u.s., they are just opposed to "u.s. policies". i've come to conclude that when an arab says "u.s. policies" it is a euphemism for "people in the u.s. are not islamic fundamentalists".

 

to hell with all of 'em."

 

There are shitloads more people than just Arabs/Muslims who are anti-US policy and not anti-America. Kind of like being anti-SUV but not anti-car, or anti-sport climbing but not anti-climbing. Don't forget that this is a hot-button, big money issue for the media right now, so you're getting flooded with fear-mongering reports of Muslims causing havoc. If you think about how many Muslims there are in the world, you're smearing the malfeasance of a few on to a great many.

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i dunno DFA, should you really be coming to the aid of muslims as a group (as individuals is something else - one should never pre-judge). the DFA is normally critical of rightous conservatives, eh? so how do muslims fare with their stands on the role of religion in government and the status of women. i am normally fairly liberal myself, not to the DFA's bleeding heart proportions, but these a-holes have gone too far.

 

but, you say, why generalize from a vocal minority to a passive majority? that is just it, what is the islamic majority doing to control it's extremists? very little it seems. it's happened before. it was called nazi germany. a nation of educated,intelligent individuals stood idly by while a vocal minority committed the greatest atrocities of our century (read "the berlin diaries" by whatshername). ultimately it wasn't stopped till the allies bombed and invaded the place (then all the good germans said "oops what a big mistake, we were never nazis"). ultimately the citizens of a nation are held accountable for the actions of their governement or vocal minority or whatever. it happened to the americans who died on 9/11, and now it may happen to many arabs. face it, it becomes them or us, and it's already started - often referred to as "war".

[JGowans]

Interesting that we've come full circle to the Nazi analogy. I just read an article about Churchill that questions whether or not he was a war criminal for the fire bombings of towns like Dresden in which thousands of civilians were killed. Like I said earlier, it depends which side of the fence you're sitting on in making judgements as to who is evil and who is justified in killing.

 

Btw, if Cheney did nothing wrong at Halliburton, then why is the SEC bothering to investigate? Why did they take a year to report the changes?

 

Also, I agree that Capitalism is probably the best we have. I have to agree since Wealth of Nations was written by a Scotsman

 

[ 11-25-2002, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: JGowans ]

[sexual_chocolate]

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Originally posted by JayB:

 

It's amazing to me to witness some folks on left -who I agree with a lot of the time and on many issues - passionately decrying something like this accounting business at Halliburton in one breath, then shrugging off the 50 million souls snuffed out under Stalin and Mao in the next. Capitalism will never be perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than anything else out there.

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I'm curious as to who shrugs off the 50 mil souls snuffed out (can souls be snuffed out?) by Mao and Stalin? I've heard some rabid Stalinists defend him, and certainly some Leninist/Marxists defend Mao, but hardly a commonly held leftist viewpoint, huh?

 

Also, arguing about Communism vs. Capitalism seems kinda archaic, if you ask me. The size of the conceptual chunks in this argument prevent any type of insightful analysis. It's not just Capitalism vs. Communism, since NEITHER exist in any form approaching purity (although we have swung towards the former in a rather out of control manner).

And, since Capitalism has evils, as you seem to indicate, can we not identify those evils and address them (instead of letting the business elite define the scope of the arguments), and perhaps come up with solutions? This seems kinda logical. And while we're at it, stop playing the "Communism" boogeyman paper tiger when discussing solutions. The only people afraid of socialism are the business elite, and the ones they have brainwashed!

[JayB]

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[QB]

Btw, if Cheney did nothing wrong at Halliburton, then why is the SEC bothering to investigate? Why did they take a year to report the changes?

[QB]

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Not sure - here's the full story. Still think the reaction has been way overblown....

 

From cnn.com

 

The oil field drilling company said after the market close Tuesday that the investigation apparently involves a change in the way it accounted for contracts after a merger with Dresser Industries. Cheney served as CEO of Halliburton from 1995 until he was named to the Republican national ticket in July 2000.

 

After the 1998 merger the company began recognizing as revenue and accounts receivable the amount of money it expected to be collectible from customers for changes or cost overruns that occurred during the course of completing contracts. Details of the change in accounting procedures at Halliburton were highlighted in an article in the New York Times last week. The Halliburton statement said it believes the article prompted the probe.

 

 

Halliburton spokeswoman Wendy Hall said changes in the way contracts were handled in the industry during the late 1990s prompted the change in accounting treatment of disputed charges and cost overruns. She said other engineering and construction firms use the same accounting procedures instituted by Halliburton in 1998.

 

Accounting issues have gained significantly more attention from investors since last fall when energy trader Enron Corp. filed for bankruptcy amid questions about its accounting practices and the validity of its reported results.

 

Related stories

Halliburton settles claims

 

Cheney leaves firm richer

 

Cheney gets A's as CEO

 

 

 

Hall could not give an estimate for how much was recorded by Halliburton under the changes in the accounting practice. The New York Times story that apparently prompted the SEC probe reported that more than $100 million in charges were involved.

 

The company's statement said it is cooperating with the SEC investigation and believes the probe will show it did nothing wrong.

 

"The company has continued this accounting treatment of similar items since 1998 and has never recorded a profit on a job where an unapproved claim or change order has been recorded in revenue," said the company's statement.

[Jake]

Hey sexualchocolate,

I'm interested in this smallpox in the blanket business. Do you know where can I read up on this?

[JayB]

quote:

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Originally posted by sexual chocolate:

I'm curious as to who shrugs off the 50 mil souls snuffed out (can souls be snuffed out?) by Mao and Stalin? I've heard some rabid Stalinists defend him, and certainly some Leninist/Marxists defend Mao, but hardly a commonly held leftist viewpoint, huh?

I wasn't speaking about Stalin and Mao so much as the regimes/philosphies that they represented. No apologists for these regimes on the left? Are you serious?

 

quote:

 

Also, arguing about Communism vs. Capitalism seems kinda archaic, if you ask me. The size of the conceptual chunks in this argument prevent any type of insightful analysis. It's not just Capitalism vs. Communism, since NEITHER exist in any form approaching purity (although we have swung towards the former in a rather out of control manner).

I'd say that in Russia/China from the 30's through the early 80's, and North Korea from the early 50s to the present, they have come as close to achieving the perfect implementation of communism as anyone ever will. If we're going to swing towards one or the other in an out of control manner I'd much rather live where it's swung in the direction of a free economy.

 

[QB]

quote:

And, since Capitalism has evils, as you seem to indicate, can we not identify those evils and address them (instead of letting the business elite define the scope of the arguments), and perhaps come up with solutions? QB]

Sounds like a good idea to me.

[sexual_chocolate]

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Originally posted by Jake:

Hey sexualchocolate,

I'm interested in this smallpox in the blanket business. Do you know where can I read up on this?

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Hey Jake; Where I originally came across information pertaining to this subject, I cannot recall, but after doing a Google search, here is one link.

 

It's an interesting thread, academic in nature, but there is also much more info out there. I didn't search more out.

[JayB]

Yo SC:

 

Did you read through that link?

[dog]

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Originally posted by philfort:

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Originally posted by RobBob:

One observation I have after viewing a small sample size of middle eastern Muslims (in engineering school in the late 70s): They cheated like Hell.

 

....

 

Maybe it was the middle eastern culture and nothing to do with the religion, but those guys were unabashed cheaters.

Hmm, hate to say it, but I certainly got the same impression in engineering at my school, in the mid-90's.

Damn, I had the same experience in my engineering school in the late '80s. Sounds like an epidemic.

[sexual_chocolate]

Yes. And I realize that its content indicated a certain level of uncertainty.

 

The previous source I read from was less ambiguous, but I can't say where I read it. Was I convinced at that time? Yes. Am I convinced now? Obviously this link couldn't perform that function, but from everything I've gathered, I'd have to say the motive was there, the attempt was there, and, inadvertent or not, the effect was there.

[allthumbs]

quote:

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Originally posted by sexual chocolate:

Yes. And I realize that its content indicated a certain level of uncertainty.

 

The previous source I read from was less ambiguous, but I can't say where I read it. Was I convinced at that time? Yes. Am I convinced now? Obviously this link couldn't perform that function, but from everything I've gathered, I'd have to say the motive was there, the attempt was there, and, inadvertent or not, the effect was there.

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Thanks for clearing that up.

[Fairweather]

quote:

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Originally posted by sexual chocolate:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jake:

Hey sexualchocolate,

I'm interested in this smallpox in the blanket business. Do you know where can I read up on this?

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Hey Jake; Where I originally came across information pertaining to this subject, I cannot recall, but after doing a Google search, here is one

link.

 

It's an interesting thread, academic in nature, but there is also much more info out there. I didn't search more out.

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Jake,

 

an "academic" like Sexual Chocolate needn't trouble us (or herself) with facts. Especially when we know that we must always blame America first. (!) I'm sure she is furiously looking for the anecdote this very moment, but alas the words were spoken without the facts fully at hand.

 

Blankets full of smallpox! Indeed.

[JayB]

I read several more articles after the one you posted (thanks, by the way)and from what I've read it seems that with the respect to deliberate transmission of smallpox to indians via infected blankets:

 

1. The only instance in which anyone has been able to find evidence that such a practice actually occured involved a letter from an

English general to one of his subordinates during the French and English war. Scholars have not been able to determine whether or not they actually attempted to kill indians in this manner or not.

 

2. The germ theory disease did not gain wide acceptance until the late 1880s/early 1890s. There was no consensus concerning how diseases were spread, nor was there a popular consensus concerning whether or not inanimate objects could transmit any disease, nor could those wishing to spread smallpox in this manner have any assurance that the infection would be contained to indians.

 

3. There was a widespread effort on the part of the US government to innoculate the native population once knowledge of this technique became widespread.

[JayB]

quote:

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Originally posted by JayB:

I read several more articles after the one you posted (thanks, by the way)and from what I've read it seems that with the respect to deliberate transmission of smallpox to indians via infected blankets:

 

1. The only instance in which anyone has been able to find evidence that such a practice actually occured involved a letter from an

English

general to one of his subordinates during the French and English war. Scholars have not been able to determine whether or not they actually attempted to kill indians in this manner or not.

 

2. The germ theory disease did not gain wide acceptance until the late 1880s/early 1890s. There was no consensus concerning how diseases were spread, nor was there a popular consensus concerning whether or not inanimate objects could transmit any disease, nor could those wishing to spread smallpox in this manner have any assurance that the infection would be contained to Indians.

 

3. There was a widespread effort on the part of the US government to innoculate the native population once knowledge of this technique became widespread.

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[JayB]

.

[JayB]

.

[JayB]

Dear God! Someone must have infected me with the quadruple posting virus

[allthumbs]

Hell of a way to get attention.

[lemon]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jake:

Hey sexualchocolate,

I'm interested in this smallpox in the blanket business. Do you know where can I read up on this?

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FUGAZI. Red Medicine. Experts.

 

A People's History of the United States, by Howard Zinn, alludes to it.

 

Here

 

And here

 

Like all things on the web, those links are subject to the customary grain of salt, BUT, it's an interesting topic and worthy of more research.

[Fence_Sitter]

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what is the islamic majority doing to control it's extremists?

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great point...isn't that the heart of the matter? the saudis are a good example of this and are actually being looked at for contributions...and many might discount muir's nazi analogy, but isn't it the same? you feel free to blame christians for sitting around while the atrocities of the holocaust were commited, but bow to the whims of PC and all that it stands for defending people that kill for identical reasons that the Nazis did ( they were affecting their culture). why are you so afraid to look at teh possibility that their complacency had a direct influence on the attacks that have been so prevalent since the 1980's and are happenign now and will continue to come? in the land of liberal PC wanking, it is all fine and good to blame whitey for their atrocities, but taboo to blame someone with darker skin than our own...

 

[ 11-25-2002, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: Fence Sitter ]

[JayB]

Seems like it's been extensively researched to me, and that no one has found any evidence whatsoever that proves, or even suggests that the US government was engaged in a deliberate effort to exterminate the Native population by deliberate use of smallpox virus.

[Fence_Sitter]

here's a question for you... do you think the muslim extremists are racist? think long and hard about that...

[JGowans]

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Originally posted by Fence Sitter:

here's a question for you... do you think the muslim extremists are racist? think long and hard about that...

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Here's Webster's definition:

 

The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

[JGowans]

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Not sure how the scandals associated with Tyco, Encron, and a few other corportations equals the populace turning a "Blind Eye" to cheating here.

- The populace may not have turned a blind eye since we were largely unaware but certainly "elites" as you alluded to earlier were definitely aware.

The only reason that you're even aware of these situations is because we have institutions in place to detect and punish such behavior.

- No, the only reason I'm aware is because either greed tripped up the perpetrators or someone with a conscience inside the organization blew the whistle. Our institutions are a veneer of law that's propped up enough to keep the impression that the government really cares.

And as far as Cheney's activities at Halliburton are concerned, I've been amazed by the sheer number of people who have made reference to these "questionable practices" without having any idea whatsoever what the practices in question were. At Halliburton it was their practice to take projected cost overruns - money that would be owed and eventually paid to them by the folks employing their services - and increase their revenue projections by the amount of the cost overruns. Scary stuff indeed.

$98 million is a big number. Taking a year to report it is not exactly proactive and refusing to field questions is rather elusive. Invoking the fifth perhcance?

It's amazing to me to witness some folks on left -who I agree with a lot of the time and on many issues - passionately decrying something like this accounting business at Halliburton in one breath, then shrugging off the 50 million souls snuffed out under Stalin and Mao in the next.

- I definitely didn't shrug off these deaths and nor do I consider corporate shenanigans to be of the same gravity as people being killed. To suggest otherwise is inaccurate.

Capitalism will never be perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than anything else out there.

What about conservative socialism?

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[allthumbs]

You know what is really disheartening about all this?

 

The Arabs had one of the most advanced civilizations on this Earth prior to 750AD (the time of Mohammed). They were leaders in mathematics - that's who we got our current numbering system from. And they were leaders in medicine. They did some of the first surgeries and they were the first to develop optical lenses.

 

Now they are a backward and uneducated lot, unable to work technological things without western assistance. Makes you wonder about Islam and what it has done for the followers of Mohammed.....