Why all the crag closures?

[Seamstress]

Add to the mix - it amazes me that folks climb at places where there are raptors, putting up FAs, and keeping it "secret" because they fear climbing will be closed to protect those birds (or whatever). Effectively it just keeps the weekend warriors out of their way and keeps various landowners in the dark about their activities. That may have been an effective strategy for a lightly populated area with very few climbers. It isn't an effective stewardship approach for a growing number of climbers and birds...conflicts will increase.

[chris]

Joseph v Kev & Steve...so much for a spray-free zone.

 

Great example of a guy who says one thing, but behind the scenes does something completely different.

 

This is my take on Joseph as well. The words he uses on cc.com and other web discussions are totally different than his behind the scenes actions. Which are now coming to light.

[JosephH]

How am I lying? If you were not instrumental in getting it closed, then what is it you did exactly? I'm sure everyone would love to know the TRUTH, and get to know the real you. For the THIRD time, what about the Totem Pole closure?

Truth? You have repeatedly shown again and again you have no regard whatsoever for the truth. And how are you lying in this case? Let's lay it out:

 

...you were instrumental in getting it closed to climbing?

Fact: I had nothing whatsoever to do with the Totem or any other Monument Valley tower being closed to climbing. The Totem and all the other towers have been closed to climbing for decades by the owners the land, the Navajo Nation. The Navajo Nation Tribal Parks and Recreation Department is the land manager of record for the park and have never allowed rock climbing on any of the towers under their jurisdiction which they consider praysticks between two worlds. So again, no, I had nothing to do with climbing being closed on the Totem.

 

Fact: A few years back a well-known Valley climber posted up that a tour company was advertising $1000 per person climbs on the Totem and was objecting to that commercialization. What I did do was verify whether the advertiser had some special arrangement with the Navajos that gave them special rights to charge for climbing the Totem. From my perspective the idea someone would have such privileged [commercial] access is just plain wrong - either it's open to all for to climb or it's not. So I checked with the Tribal Parks and Recreation because I'd be interested in climbing it if it was open, but not to pay some clowns a couple thousand for a partner and I to be able to do it. And on checking it turns out they were just commercial poachers with no permission of any kind from the Tribe to make any such offer. What they had done was cut a under-the-table deal with a nearby tribal member who had no authority to speak for the tribal government or to make such an arrangement.

 

Fact: And it should be noted that this sort of deal is exactly how most tribes have lost their lands, fisheries, and hunting rights over over the past several hundred years - by the military, government agents, or commercial interests seeking out and paying off some tribal member to sign a document when they had no authority to speak for the tribe. My wife is an enrolled member of the Colville Reservation and that's exactly what happened to them - one corrupt deal after another led to their losing large tracts of their reservation along with an endless array of fraudulent mining and timber deals. Hell, the treaty the government cut with her tribe for the Grand Coulee Dam was done this way under the signature of someone who didn't have the authority to sign for the tribe. And just for perspective, that treaty specified the tribe would receive annual revenue from the dam as well as irrigation and electricity. But they received nothing after signing that treaty in the early 30's. They had to grow generations of lawyers to pursue their treaty rights and finally settle with the government after my wife and I were married in the 90s. Even then they settled on less than pennies on the dollar for what they were rightfully entitled even by the bogus treaty. Bottom line is it's really great historic carpetbagger footsteps these commercial poachers were following in. Glad I could help set the record straight in this particular instance.

 

Fact: So no, I didn't have anything whatsoever to do with the Totem being closed to climbing. And poaching ascents of any of the towers in Monument Valley will just make it that much harder for the AF to ever strike a deal with the Navajos for climbing on their reservation. Again, it's either open to all or open to none from my perspective.

 

Fact: What I have done over and over is suggest climbers interested in climbing on Indian lands should start going to Indian schools and offering climbing classes and getting some the rez kids psyched on climbing. That and have suggested climbing and guiding classes for tribal members who are interested should be part of any deal to climb on Indian lands.

 

How am I lying?

On the matter of the Totem? In every respect.

On the matter of my working to get every possible open climbing day out at Beacon? In every respect

(...and how many days have you help out with getting? None, dude, zip, nada, not a one.).

On the matter of Jeff Thomas' rope? In every respect.

On the matter of 'tearing up the trail'? In every respect.

On the matter of the destruction of the YW p2 variation? In every respect.

 

So far, I've yet to hear anything but lies out of you aimed in my direction...

[JosephH]

This is my take on Joseph as well. The words he uses on cc.com and other web discussions are totally different than his behind the scenes actions. Which are now coming to light.

Kevbone - please! Out with all my 'behind the scenes' "actions" - I'm just in rapt suspense dude. I'm sure everyone here would love to know. The only 'behind the scenes' "actions" I've done to-date are helping out the Summit Rock crew get their permanent year-round closure lifted. So spit it out if you've got'em dude...

 

Add to the mix - it amazes me that folks climb at places where there are raptors, putting up FAs, and keeping it "secret" because they fear climbing will be closed to protect those birds (or whatever). Effectively it just keeps the weekend warriors out of their way and keeps various landowners in the dark about their activities. That may have been an effective strategy for a lightly populated area with very few climbers. It isn't an effective stewardship approach for a growing number of climbers and birds...conflicts will increase.

The only place I've seen this apply of late around the PNW is Trout Creek where folks had been climbing since the '80s, but being low key about it. And, to be honest, had the recent crop been lower key about the place and skipped the internet spew, guidebook, and magazine cover they might have gotten another couple of years before the BLM took notice of the place. But going whole hog online and in print pretty much did the place in from that respect. But once a crag is under active management by a government land manager the surest way to make the AF's job all that much harder is to start poaching the place during closures.

[stevetimetravlr]

I have no reason to lie Joseph. You weave a web of bullshit and deceit however and it's all catching up to you.

[JosephH]

But yet you keep lying over and over as you just did here with this completely horseshit lie about the Totem Pole.

 

What exactly about the above is a "web of bullshit and deceit" as opposed to just another utter and bald face lie on your part. The Totem was not and is not open for climbing and I had no role in that whatsoever, let alone an 'instrumental' one. If anything, I've repeatedly offered up suggestions to the AF on how to approach climbing on Indian lands by involving Indian youth in climbing.

 

Dude, with every post you just keep making it perfectly clear over and over you are immune to the facts and incapable of the truth.

 

Oh, and here's a another recent foray of mine into Indian country earlier this month - notice how I weave my "web of bullshit and deceit" and end up being called out for my anti-climber "behind-the-scenes actions":

 

POSTING EMAIL EXCHANGES WITHOUT CONSENT OF ALL PARTIES IS ILL-ADVISED AND IN VIOLATION OF THE USER AGREEMENT

Edited February 29, 2012 by Off_White

[pink]

[JosephH]

It should be noted just about the time of that picture Kauk's car was 'savaged' and everything in it 'appropriated' to the tune of thousands in gear for similar happiness.

[Alan_Howard]

 

And P.S.

You sound like you have some interest in climbing and birds - to what extent for each I'm not altogether sure.

I have one and only one agenda out there: getting every single climbing day in I can. Period. Same as it ever was. But I not willing to be anything but direct, upfront, and honest to get those days and I'm not the one with the hidden agenda.

 

That's perfectly logical to work for every single climbing day that you can, but there are climbers out there who want more... what are you doing to help or speak for them? If you aren't speaking up for them then you are still only speaking for yourself, and the way you put it, here, you sound like you are running on a hamster wheel. I am not one to judge, but you are far too static about this whole mess - you are too comfortable with just what you have and it seems that you are the only one who likes it this way. The BRCA is at least thinking of others and something progressive (wouldn't you also benefit from any result of positive action that the BRCA is working to achieve?) whereas you are not putting forth a community viewpoint.

 

I see what you are saying, Joseph, not that I agree with you... You are entitled to an opinion, but it makes sense that other's opinions are heard as well.

 

Sounds like the Beacon Rock boys need to have a beer together

[ivan]

Sounds like the Beacon Rock boys need to have a beer together

alcohol = the cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems

[JosephH]

Sounds like the Beacon Rock boys need to have a beer together.

Tried that, but in the end, the BRBs wanted nothing whatsoever to do with any form of honest relationships built on openness and mutual respect - and you can't blame them - how can you be when you are all about unfairness and 'The Man'?

[kevbone]

how can you be when you are all about unfairness and 'The Man'?

 

Now your getting it.

[ivan]

Sounds like the Beacon Rock boys need to have a beer together.

Tried that, but in the end, the BRBs wanted nothing whatsoever to do with any form of honest relationships built on openness and mutual respect - and you can't blame them - how can you be when you are all about unfairness and 'The Man'?

the beatard nation is essentially an aboriginal democracy, broadly tolerating a wide range of incoherent beliefs and personages, from super-mellow, foot-in-the-grave moderates to foaming-at-the-mouth-tinfoil-hat types - democracy is ugly - probably why the founding fadders despised it?

[denalidave]

Sounds like the Beacon Rock boys need to have a beer together.

Tried that, but in the end, the BRBs wanted nothing whatsoever to do with any form of honest relationships built on openness and mutual respect - and you can't blame them - how can you be when you are all about unfairness and 'The Man'?

the beatard nation is essentially an aboriginal democracy, broadly tolerating a wide range of incoherent beliefs and personages, from super-mellow, foot-in-the-grave moderates to foaming-at-the-mouth-tinfoil-hat types - democracy is ugly - probably why the founding fadders despised it?

"mmmmm, recon I like me some of dem french fried tators hhmmmm, gruf, grnt, hmmmm"

[video:youtube]

[JosephH]

how can you be when you are all about unfairness and 'The Man'?

Now your getting it.

Aside from your brilliant guitar work, the thing I admire most about you is your straight-off-the-cuff honesty to all comers which is otherwise in short supply out there. You may be a total loon, but you're an honest one.

[bstach]

'Raptor' is a pretty cool word.

[Edlinger]

Falcons, Hawks, and Golden Eagles are back in record numbers.....

[ivan]

Falcons, Hawks, and Golden Eagles are back in record numbers.....

aLl yOUr cLifF aRe beLoNg tO uS!!!

[JosephH]

Falcons, Hawks, and Golden Eagles are back in record numbers.....

They were, and were a long ways towards regaining their orginal range and nesting pair counts. Then we started building wind farms in earnest and are now slicing and dicing unprecedented numbers of them. It's a bummer really from a climbing perspective, as it has put a renewed emphasis on protecting their eyries in an attempt to try and keep up the reproduction rate in the face of the wind farm losses.

[Cobra_Commander]

 

I call bs how is this eagle even supposed to use that knife? Like asking a t-rex to open your beer or do pushups.

[bobinc]

Oh, the irony. the Columbia/Snake dams have chopped up millions of salmon over the past few generations. Now we're developing wind and chopping up the raptors.

[ivan]

Oh, the irony. the Columbia/Snake dams have chopped up millions of salmon over the past few generations. Now we're developing wind and chopping up the raptors.

we can't can the chopped salmon nor fry up the filleted birdies?