Looking for thoughts on a parka purchase.

[tvashtarkatena]

The usual routine on Rainier and the like is to get up early and freeze your ass off until the sun comes up while your team plods, incredibly slowly, upward. A puffy comes in very handy for that time, as well as for rest breaks and hanging around camp. It also extends the warmth of your sleeping bag, if you choose to go a bit lighter in that department.

 

I'm currently using a Montbell baffled 800 fill puffy w/hood that weighs about 24 oz with the hood. No weatherproof coating, but fantastic weight for warmth at a decent price point. I'm old and cold, so YMMV, of course.

 

Got the standard action suit layering thing in addition, of course. Plenty of great options out there. Here's what I'm currently using:

 

Wear your favorite wicking T for a 'sacrificial' layer underneath that to sweat into during the ascent to high camp. You can dry it out in your bag overnight if you need it the next day.

 

MH micro power stretch hoody is nice for a baselayer over that.

 

If cold enough, I take an old expedition weight capilene shirt for a mid layer. That shit still rocks when its cold.

 

Softshells: OR Ferrosi hoody (light, schoeller fabric) or MH Mercurial softshell hoody are both nice, depending what conditions call for.

 

Recommend Schoeller pants if you don't have em already. Non coated wind pants and a light longjohns are plenty good enough with the right weight of schoeller pants. Multilayer goretex pants are nice if you like steam rooms. Haven't used mine in years.

 

Shell: The lightest Activent you can find. Multilayer goretex atmospheric reentry jackets are heavy hype. Breathability is way more important than 'waterproof when standing in a shower' here.

 

During good forecasts you can just take a wind shirt instead.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[Theodore]

I went ahead and pulled the trigger on a Norrona Lyngen. Should have it on Tuesday, hoping I like it as much as the reviews praise it!

 

Tvash - That's pretty similar to what I wore on Hood and what I wear on 14ers in CO during the winter. I did use shell pants on Hood and didn't get any 'steam room' effect. I also have a pair of lightly insulated Marmot ski pants that I wear when it's really cold instead of my OR softshell pants.

 

Thanks again for the conversation, I like seeing the different thought processes and opinions.

[tvashtarkatena]

Here is a list of ACTUAL weights of soem of the better jackets available.

 

Belay jackets

 

Wild Things, Belay Jacket, 34oz pre 2010 / 963g

Eddie Bauer XV 38.5oz / 1091g

MEC Tango, 31.7oz / 898g

Patagonia DAS (new) 36.9oz / 1046g

Arcteryx Duelly 28oz / 794g

Narrona Lyngen 26oz / 737g

Narrona Trollveggen 37.5oz / 1063g

Arcteryx Atom Hoody SV 19.0 oz / 538g

Mountain Hardwear Compressor Hoody Primaloft 1 19.8oz / 561g

Mammut Ambler 47.2oz / 1338g

 

Lightly insulated jackets (belay sweaters) and shells

 

EB Downlight Hoodie Pullover XL 15.4 oz / 455g

EB Frontpoint XL 18.5oz / 547g

Arcteryx Atom lt Hoody large 14.4oz / 429g

Arcteryx Atom Hoody SV 19.0 oz / 562g

Mountain Hardwear Compressor Hoody 19.8oz / 586g

Arcteryx Gamma MX Hoody XL 24oz / 710g

Arcteryx Squamish pullover XL 5.6oz -166g

 

As an example

Arcteryx Duelly 28oz / 794g

Narrona Lyngen 26oz / 737g

 

The Narrona is one of the best down jackets available these days with the addition of Primaloft. But the Dually is all Coreloft and a lot warmer for that 2oz in increased weight.

 

Narrona uses 750 fill...OK, but with all the 800 fill goodness out there, why settle?

 

Arcteryx is cool if you're willing to pay double to sport that logo or you're fully sponsored and you just don't care, but there are comparable good and much more affordable options available for just about everything they make.

 

All in all, a pretty 'weighty' list, especially when you get get 900 fill down sweaters from Montbell, Western Mountaineering, that are warmer than above and weigh in at like, 7 oz. Argue all you want, but you can put that shit in your back pocket.

 

If you want some great information and good selection that'll keep your pack weight down to a reasonable level and your wallet solvent, google Pro Mountain Sports in Seattle.

 

 

[Theodore]

The copy from Norrona reads that most of their stuff is truly 800, but in the interest of under promising and over delivering, they market it as 750.

 

I had a Fission SL for a bit that was too small for me and wasn't really impressed with its packability.

 

Western Mountaineering was appealing, but their hoods didn't impress me too much and I didn't like their color selection. I prefer bright colors for outer shells/layers. Just in case.

 

I'll definitely check out Pro Mountain Sports.

[tvashtarkatena]

Cool...comforting to know in this world of hype.

 

I always got overheated when wearing heavier shell pants once the sun came up...then I had to carry the damn things to the summit and back, so I switched to 5 oz wind pants with ankle zips I can remove with crampons on. On really bad days I'll use some old Patagonia single layer goretex jobs - about 14 oz.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[Dane]

All in all, a pretty 'weighty' list, especially when you get get 900 fill down sweaters from Montbell, Western Mountaineering, that are warmer than above and weigh in at like, 7 oz.

 

Actually with just a little actual fact checking you'd find among other things that almost everyone on the plantet uses a small for their over all jacket weights. If they accurate at all even in a small size. The first part of that list was "heavy weight belay jackets. I seriously doubt there is a 7oz down jacket anywhere but in the hyper space of advertizing.

 

I could be wrong though, but really doubt it. As the RAB Xenon jacket (60g Primaloft) in XL comes in at 11.8oz. The Rab Infinity Down jacket/sweater is 850 fill and 17.5 oz in an XL. Which isn't close to the 7.5 oz Rab says the Large size weights.

 

Here are the factory spec and the actual weights.

 

Eddie Bauer 43.8 oz, loft 5" (F#..factory lists 34.7 oz)

Arcterxy Duelly 34.oz, loft 2.5" (F# 24oz)

Narrona 31.8oz, loft 2.25" (F# 24oz)

Patagonia 36.9oz, loft 1.5" (F# 26oz)

Mtn Hardware 26.4 oz, loft 1.25 (F#19oz)

Mammut 47.2 oz, loft 4.25" (F#40oz)

Helious 35.2 oz, loft 3.25 (F#18oz)

Front Point 40.8, loft 3.5" (F#30oz)

MEC Tango, 31.7oz, loft 2" (F#28oz)

RAB Infinity 17.5oz loft 2.5" (F#7.5oz)

 

Some are a good ways off the advertised weights!

 

Funny all this talk about Ranier though. On a guided climb of DC most will use a hut for the one over night. At the most even without the hut you'll spend 2 nights out. Down will work fine there with little risk to you the climbing party or the guides. As you are 4 to 6 hrs from summit to the parking lot.

 

The Narrona Lygen is a rare exception on my list. That one I take climbing. Have fun!

 

 

 

 

 

[Julian]

Outside of the greater ranges I have a hard time believing there are that many conditions that are too cold for the Atom LT/SV combo. Also with regards to the comments about Arc'teryx's pricing, the Atom line is way below their usual price points and easily competitive with anything else out there of a similar quality. Patagucci's synthetic and down garments are not that much cheaper considering their inferior design and build. An LT/SV pairing would cost $450 retail and can be obtained at a considerably better price than that by shopping around or using Ebay.

[Theodore]

While I agree with your point that the manufacturers might be a little less than truthful about their weights, I don't think weighing XL's is fair to them either.

 

On another note, not doing guided DC climb either.

[Dane]

I don't think weighing XL's is fair to them either. On another note, not doing guided DC climb either.

 

Hey happy here you have a Lyngen. Nice jacket.

 

If you think the difference in a Lg and a XL should double the weight good on ya. I had to actually weigh smalls and meds ..a bunch of them to find out what the manufactures were using to get their specs. Doubling the weight of a jacket between what is advertised and what an XL is, also is "not fair". I might just call it deceptive advertizing actually.

 

Not doing DC..that is cool. What route are you doing? Either way two nights out and 6 hrs from the summit to the parking lot no matter what the route is typical. The heavy weight belay jackets are over kill there unless it is mid winter. Your sewn through light weight Lyngen an exception.

 

As I said, good luck!

[Theodore]

Thank ya sir! Not sure on a route just yet, I had originally planned on a May ascent with a friend, but he backed out on me. So now I'm looking at a July-ish ascent. Maybe Emmons? Dunno for sure.

 

Re: weights, as I said, I don't necessarily trust the manufacturers weights, and weighing smalls doesn't seem honest, but believable with how a lot of companies do things... I'd agree that weight shouldn't be THAT far off, but of course XL's are going to weigh more. (they just shouldn't be that much more)

[Dane]

One thing I want to point out, is that I am in Florida.

 

Thanks Sig, glad you have enjoyed the blog.

 

Fun facts you should know. Most everyone writing here regularly lives on the east side of the Cascades. 80+ is not uncommon here in the summer. I lived in Spokane on the east side where it was generally 90+ during June and July when I and clients would climb Rainier.

 

Never wore or taken a down jacket on any of those climbs. Dozens of them. In fact I have suffered way more from the sun/heat on any summer Rainier climb than I ever have from the cold.

 

The original poster asked about.."Orizaba, Kili, Aconcagua and Rainier." Up to about 18 or 20K feet I'd compare Aconcagua to Rainier or Orizaba. Above that a warm jacket is nice to have around. Which will be summit day or what time you spend at high camp. Kili is warmer yet, more like Mt Adams in late fall imo except it is higher. Which is why I originally suggested layering the more modern synthetic jackets available.

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

I just noted a conspicuous absence of the lighter/faster brand names most of the folks I know who actually still get out in winter use. MH, FF, WM, Montbell, etc. I'm sure all these manufacturers are lying about their gear weights (I weigh all my gear...dead nuts on so far for everything I've bought from these folks). Yes, an industry wide conspiracy seems plausible to me.

 

I have a 7 oz Montbell down sweater and from personal experience, its amazingly warm fits in most pockets. Love it.

 

It's cool. A variety of opinions is great. Erroneous or just plain bad advice, or advice with some weird bias...not so much. Not that we all don't love a good, old fashioned anti-bolting tirade.

 

The climbing community moved past this anti-down thing about three decades ago...just after Polarguard and Primaloft hit the market. It still rages on on the hiking sites, mostly due to an inability to read a forecast, but here? Seriously?

 

My first sleeping bag was Polarguard...in 1973. Primaloft came out in the 80s. Synthetic downs have changed little since then...after all that time they're still only half as warm/weight and less than half as durable as the real thing. For winter conditions (or Rainier in summer), few climbers consider down's cheaper, poorer cousin as a serious contender.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[Pro Mountain Sports]

Interesting discussion here. While I believe the synthetic insulation has a place, like Tvash I've also found I prefer down most of the time for my own outdoor activities. It's way too easy to buy into the hype, and there is no shortage of hype, and a ton of BS as well. A new miracle fabric every year.

 

I've tried many of these miracle fabrics, and they never do what they claim. The greater the hype, the poorer the performance and value. Waterproof/Breathable is a great example. 30 years ago Gore added urethane to protect from “contamination” that was causing their membrane to leak, which of course reduced the breathability. The sales pitch at the time was improved breathability. Every few years they “improve” their product with a new marketing campaign. Improved breathability is always the claim, and not just improved but greatly improved. Their competitors are spending money like crazy to hype their way into this lucrative market. No surprise that incredible breathabitlity is the claim. The “testers” take out the brand new products, take a few laps, write reviews, and feed the hype. In my experience miracle fabrics are a hoax. The more I try stuff, more often I am impressed with the least hyped stuff.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Pro Mountain Sports

[tvashtarkatena]

Yeah, the waterproof/breathable thing. Wow. You wanna spend some coin? I'm sure you can stand pat while a damn spillway opens up over your head while sporting $400 worth of Dead Bird (now available in 'Squid ink' and 'Citron')...but why would you? Wouldn't you be, you know, moving somewhere else? In a hurry? The minute you do that, you've gotta take that shit off to keep from sweltering.

 

The shell I take 90% of the time? An uncoated, ripstop windshirt. 5 oz. And I can only wear that when it's really nasty without sweating through the rest of my layers. Thank dog for softshells and Schoeller. Holy Christ, the little Swiss person who invented the latter should get a Nobel.

 

Don't get me wrong, I HATE being cold, and I generally don't allow myself to get cold. For me, moisture from within, not without, is the much larger problem. That requires clothing that truly breaths and has a reasonable chance of drying from body heat. Goretex and company just doesn't

 

Back to Fake Down...perhaps the plastics industry will eventually come up with something that will come remotely close to the several billion years of evolution it took to optimize the feather. So far, though, it's pretty easy to pick out folks who didn't spring for a real puffy on any given winter morning. They'll either be hunched and hopping or still in their bag.

 

But the industry's proud of its synthetics. That's why they're so forthcoming with a quantified down/synthetic insulation measurement comparison. Google it...you might want to budget some extra time for the search.

 

I keep my 25 year old FF Volant in the car as a loaner for just such occasions.

 

 

Edited January 30, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[Pro Mountain Sports]

I remember a 4 week trip to SE Alaska in 1977. Several of the guys had the new synthetic bags that were all the rage. "Warm when wet" was the slogan. Todd Bibler was calling his "cold when warm"

[tvashtarkatena]

Actually, my Snow Lion polarguard bag was a replacement for my first bag, which had cool ducks on the inside. At 14 I thought I was geared out like a mountain god until I slept out at 13,000 feet on a crystal clear Sierra night in that sucker. I woke up the next morning (well, I'm not sure I ever got to sleep) next to the 2 gallons of solid ice in our water jug.

 

My buddies got a chuckle out of it...from their down bags, one of which was a WWII relic.

 

Never did manage to get that thing wet. Kinda like my puffy in that way.

Edited January 30, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[Dane]

Here is a little reality check.

 

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/11/daniel-harros-climb-stay-dry-to-stay.html

 

Funny how I and my friends climb technical routes all winter and intentionally don't use down garments a vast majority of the time. While others use it on seemingly every trip they do.

 

I'm lucky enough to have played at this game a while. Luckier yet getting exposed to a lot of gear over the years. I still pick what works best for me. Glad others can do the same.

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Wow. A link to one of your own many, many blog postings.

 

Seriously?

 

Unless you're referring to sleeping bags, I'm not sure who this group of down fetishists who cannot leave the house without a puffy are (you seemingly omitted 'in winter'). Could be the same peeps behind The Great Gear Weight Conspiracy.

 

Not that I have anything against fetishism per se. To each his/her own.

 

I do have something against bullshit, however.

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[Dane]

Daniel's critic of his own climb actually, rewritten at his request for the blog.

 

Here is more on the same subject which originally motivated Daniel's secondary comments.

 

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/11/staying-warm-generally-means-staying.html

 

 

[BirdDog]

Daniel's critic of his own climb actually, rewritten at his request for the blog.

 

Here is more on the same subject which originally motivated Daniel's secondary comments.

 

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/11/staying-warm-generally-means-staying.html

 

 

Interesting write up and analysis Dane. I've nerver gone for waterproof/breathable fabric on a down jacket or bag; because I've always been more concerned about my sweat getting them wet from the inside, rather than being worried about them getting wet from weather. Interesting point on the gaiters.

[tvashtarkatena]

I'm out every weekend.

 

Don't need to read about it. "Stay dry and hydrated". OK, hard to argue with that. That's like saying "keep breathing". I'm on it!

 

Regarding gaitors...stopped using them a long time ago. Bicycle toe clip straps around your ankles.

 

They work well to hold a water bottle, too.

Edited January 30, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[tvashtarkatena]

Why am I on this?

 

I have a problem with one poster with really weird habits often stating that their opinions represents most climbers in the PNW...and AK, for that matter. When challenged, up comes the resume bluster...a sure sign of 'no reasoning behind this opinion I can come up with'. I can think of another poster who's also got a great climbing resume...and who is also our most avid bolt ranter. Experience means little if the end result is BS.

 

Sure, east coast noobs might buy it, they've got no in person fact checking available, but for the sake of our local noobs, I would suggest dropping the unwanted representation for 'the climbing community in the PNW so ubiquitous in Dane's posts.

 

I mean, do you really want to be advising noobs to hit the AK range without any down clothing? Really? Sure, people have done it, but that's not only patently stupid advice, its potentially dangerous.

 

 

Edited January 30, 2012 by tvashtarkatena

[Water]

not trying to get into the pee pee match here but just adding my 2cents/opinion: I have a handful of different puffies and I'm always happy I have a hood and often wish the ones that don't had one, even if I have warm hat(s)/balaclava/beanie/etc and other stuff that is hooded with me--a hood is always beloved by me.

 

don't try to buy a jacket for 1 mountain and trying to make it work for 3 others at various spots around the globe, cross those bridges when you get to them, in the scope of it a few hundred bucks for a jacket now vs for then.. and as mentioned using two is not a total wack idea.

 

I have climbed in mont-bell tec down jacket once during single digit temps and low teens in the cascades and it was fine--but it was sunny, zilch humidity, and we paced ourselves very well. I even had a event shell on top of it. Maybe the pits were damp but I don't know, but it was needed even while moving to keep me warm.

 

For climbing (most of the time a single day affair down at hood) I just use a softshell and a base layer with a nano puff pullover as my insulator if I need it (rarely do) as I know I can sweat the shit out of it and not worry too bad.

 

Plan for the majority of conditions but be hedged for worst case. Just another hat in the ring but for 'summer' on rainier personally I think you can use down or synthetic equally, just use half a brain about it. If you sweat like a sasquatch and heavily plan on using it to insulate you while you do are exerting yourself at full capacity, don't get down. If you're mostly planning to use it at rest stops and around camp then down is okay, or if it just gets used near the top and you're coming down that day you're fine. I dont have a problem really getting down damp if it is for a day/if i know it will be sunny later/etc. If the weather is utter crap chances are you won't be going up in it anyways.

[John Frieh]

I mean, do you really want to be advising noobs to hit the AK range without any down clothing? Really? Sure, people have done it, but that's not only patently stupid advice, its potentially dangerous.

 

With the exception of my sleeping bag I have yet to take any down garment to Alaska. I've done five trips (not counting ice climbing trips in Valdez) to climb in different parts of Alaska since 2009 in either winter, spring, summer or fall.

 

My choice of kit in Alaska is based on my experiences climbing in the lower 48 (OR, WA, ID, MT, WY, CA, CAN).

 

Down garments potentially have a place in one's kit but that is for each person to figure out for themself hopefully before they tackle their bigger objective.

 

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I mean, do you really want to be advising noobs to hit the AK range without any down clothing? Really? Sure, people have done it, but that's not only patently stupid advice, its potentially dangerous.

 

With the exception of my sleeping bag I have yet to take any down garment to Alaska. I've done five trips (not counting ice climbing trips in Valdez) to climb in different parts of Alaska since 2009 in either winter, spring, summer and fall.

 

My choice of kit in Alaska is based on my experiences climbing in the lower 48 (OR, WA, ID, MT, WY, CA, CAN).

 

Down garments potentially have a place in one's kit but that is for each person to figure out for themself hopefully before they tackle their bigger objective.

 

 

What do you bring, John, and for what temps?

 

I've only got two puffies myself - a ginormous-looking NF Nuptse and a light synthetic compressor. Not sure when I'd be in the market for a new coat, but should I keep getting out in Winter or headed up to Denali, I may.