j_b Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 Right, that's the face of the movement portrayed by the corporate media and it's working, apparently. Quote
rob Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 It looks like we are okay to occupy any country but our own....... well done bone Quote
ivan Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 Right, that's the face of the movement portrayed by the corporate media and it's working, apparently. don't blind yourself, it just gets in the way of accomplishing what you want - the media has shown both the serious and the seedy element, and there IS a substantial seedy element - really now, was it the corporate media that made my very liberal portland friend make his observation to me about all the scary homeless types in pdx? Quote
sobo Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 Right, that's the face of the movement portrayed by the corporate media and it's working, apparently. So why are we not hearing the voice of the "independent" media? WhereTF are they? I don't have a TV either (just like ivan), but I would love to see some coverage from a media outlet that shows that the protesters are well-organized, have a definitive plan, and can represent themselves in a positive light. To date, it just looks like an all-night mosh pit/rave/hippy drum circle to me where mob rule "governs". Quote
j_b Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) ha, yes. If only we could make the homeless disappear. They could take a shit in the woods and nobody would notice. I suspect nobody can deny anymore we have a homelessness problem, thanks to OWS. Edited November 17, 2011 by j_b Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 why can't the protestors sleep somewhere else? Exactly. Quote
j_b Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 Right, that's the face of the movement portrayed by the corporate media and it's working, apparently. So why are we not hearing the voice of the "independent" media? WhereWTF are they? I don't have a TV either (just like ivan), but I would love to see some coverage from a media outlet that shows that these people are organized, have a plan, and can represent themselves in a positive light. To date, it just looks like an all-night mosh pit/rave to me. People represent themselves as they are, which is a good thing since nobody can deny reality however unsightly it may be. The independent media is tiny. I assume you have heard of corporate media consolidation? Quote
j_b Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 why can't the protestors sleep somewhere else? Exactly. Sleeping where they can't be ignored is fundamental to their gaining a voice. Quote
sobo Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 I assume you have heard of corporate media consolidation? Don't be a rhetorical smart-ass, j_b. Your arguments won't get much traction with me if that is to be your approach. Quote
j_b Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 the media has shown both the serious and the seedy element, and there IS a substantial seedy element The media has gone out of its way to show the weird. It's well documented. Quote
kevbone Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 why can't the protestors sleep somewhere else? Exactly. how about in the middle of the street? Quote
j_b Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 I assume you have heard of corporate media consolidation? Don't be a rhetorical smart-ass, j_b. Your arguments won't get much traction with me if that is to be your approach. I am not being a smart ass. Seriously. Your asking where is the independent media doesn't make sense if you are aware of corporate media consolidation. Quote
sobo Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 I assume you have heard of corporate media consolidation? Don't be a rhetorical smart-ass, j_b. Your arguments won't get much traction with me if that is to be your approach. I am not being a smart ass. Seriously. Your asking where is the independent media doesn't make sense if you are aware of corporate media consolidation. So are you claiming that an independent media that could cover the OWS movement does not exist? I find that hard to believe. Quote
rob Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 why can't the protestors sleep somewhere else? Exactly. Where, exactly, should they sleep? Or are you assuming they all happen to live in NYC? Quote
ivan Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 why can't the protestors sleep somewhere else? Exactly. Sleeping where they can't be ignored is fundamental to their gaining a voice. not being high as a kite at all hours is another? Quote
ivan Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 the media has shown both the serious and the seedy element, and there IS a substantial seedy element The media has gone out of its way to show the weird. It's well documented. as they have w/ the teapartiers, 60's era hippies, feminists, abolitionists, etc. for-profit media exists both to entertain and edify. such is life. Quote
j_b Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 To date, it just looks like an all-night mosh pit/rave to me. Although this is not a fair characterization of the movement to date, wild street "parties" have been part of the expression of deep popular discontent throughout time. During the middle ages, the populace took over religious festivals to dance, drink and taunt political power. Quote
j_b Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 the media has shown both the serious and the seedy element, and there IS a substantial seedy element The media has gone out of its way to show the weird. It's well documented. as they have w/ the teapartiers, 60's era hippies, feminists, abolitionists, etc. for-profit media exists both to entertain and edify. such is life. so, why do you fall for it? Quote
j_b Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) why can't the protestors sleep somewhere else? Exactly. Sleeping where they can't be ignored is fundamental to their gaining a voice. not being high as a kite at all hours is another? any other cliches to shovel our way? what's the fraction of population high as kite at all hours? why shouldn't they also be part of OWS? Edited November 17, 2011 by j_b Quote
ivan Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 again, strategy conversation - is putting homeless folks, however representative or symbolic of the movement, up front the best stragegy to win popular support, which is as key in a republic as in a dictatorship in terms of effecting change? like or not, the average joe doesn't give a fuck about homeless folks. they do care about affordable healthcare, living wages, economically damaging free trade deals, corporate domination of the congress, etc., etc., but they won't listen to a word of it if the spokesman looks like a crackhead. sorry. i don't know who on earth would label me conservative, but i still wear a tie to fucking work Quote
j_b Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 Nobody is putting the homeless up front but the corporate media. Quote
ivan Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) the media has shown both the serious and the seedy element, and there IS a substantial seedy element The media has gone out of its way to show the weird. It's well documented. as they have w/ the teapartiers, 60's era hippies, feminists, abolitionists, etc. for-profit media exists both to entertain and edify. such is life. so, why do you fall for it? what have i said that makes you think i've "fallen for it" - i think i have a pretty good idea of what the movement's about, who comprises it, etc, but if being realistic about tactics and strategy is "falling for it," then i guess i have. Edited November 17, 2011 by ivan Quote
ivan Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 Nobody is putting the homeless up front but the corporate media. and my friend walking down the street in pdx? Quote
sobo Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 To date, it just looks like an all-night mosh pit/rave to me. Although this is not a fair characterization of the movement to date, wild street "parties" have been part of the expression of deep popular discontent throughout time. During the middle ages, the populace took over religious festivals to dance, drink and taunt political power. Two months ago, it appeared to me that the OWS movement in NYC had a purpose. They were bringing people together, growing in popularity, appeared (on the surface) to be organized, and they were gaining momentum. That does not appear to be the case anymore, to me at least. Their movement has now devolved into a lot of whining and moaning. Their galvanizing purpose and message appears to have been lost in recent weeks as their ranks have grown to encompass any and all that would join a street party in progress. They need a reboot... Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted November 17, 2011 Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) There have been no recent, and few past supreme court cases involving the 1st amendment right to assemble, and none directly related to the current OWS 'to camp or not to camp' question. The constitutionality of time, place, and manner restrictions on speech, and, presumably, assembly, has been determined in the past by the following 4 part test: 1. Does the regulation serve an important governmental interest? 2. Is the government interest served by the regulation unrelated to the suppression of a particular message? 3. Is the regulation narrowly tailored to serve the government's interest? 4. Does the regulation leave open ample alternative means for communicating messages? In addition, a) public safety and b) national security have both served as legitimate government interests for such time, place, and manner restrictions on speech. My guess is that the 'no camping' restriction will pass this 4 part test, the government interest being public safety, and will therefore be ruled to be constitutional by the courts. Of course, I'm not a constitutional or any other brand of lawyer, but I do play one on CC. Carry on. Edited November 17, 2011 by tvashtarkatena Quote
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