Gaucho Argentino Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 Well, someone mention that if posted and discussed, he/she could make it happen, so here it is. How to get a better system for CLIMBING permits in these two areas (or any other similar ones)? Your ideas might help... My humble opinion: -Separate parties that want to hike and camp in designated areas around lakes or vegetation from climbers on particular routes that would bivy on the base of that route on rocks or snow. -Have a designated number of maximum people per route (example, 2 parties of 2 for the W Ridge of Prusik), but do not block climbers going there because a party of 20 are camping at Vivian Lake (same example for Boston Basin and W Ridge of Forbidden, for example) -If I can not climb a route because a party got to the Ranger Station before me, well, I'll suck it up. But if I can not climb because a guide block the Boston Basin bringing 12 people from out of state that will just be laying around, pooping and peeing, that's not cool or fair These are two or three VERY SIMPLE things that would already improve the system A LOT, very much appreciated if implemented, and very welcomed any other ideas/suggestions (even contrary to my ones, may be they are not the best, but at least trying)... Cheers, -GA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurthicks Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 (edited) I'll cross post this because it's relevant: Agreed that the permit system is frustrating, but it has done an excellent job to protect the resource. the group size of 12 is not for "guided tours," but is the legal maximum group size (regardless of chosen activity) as laid out in the 1964 Wilderness Act--the management directive for public lands including Boston Basin and many (though not all) of the popular backcountry climbing areas across the nation. Furthermore, guides are not the problem as you suggest. Guides facilitate an experience for the public. You are a member of the public, so is a paying guest of a guide. Edited August 30, 2011 by kurthicks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanstaafl Posted August 30, 2011 Share Posted August 30, 2011 My understanding is, however, that guide services are allowed to reserve permits in advance while regular members of the public are not; which is a huge advantage. Perhaps this in inaccurate, but that's the way I've always understood it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 My understanding is, however, that guide services are allowed to reserve permits in advance while regular members of the public are not; which is a huge advantage. Perhaps this in inaccurate, but that's the way I've always understood it. One time I showed up on Friday evening for weekend permits and 4/6 permits for Boston Basin had been reserved by guide services. This seems extremely unfair. Either guides should be under the same rules as the public (no advanced reservations) or there should be a limit to how many permits out of 6 can go to guided parties (say 2). As to the party size limit of 12 - other areas have a limit of 6 in the N. Cascades. Boston Basin seems to be one exception. Areas like Redoubt/Spickard, Snowfield Peak, etc are definitely 6. I agree that the areas are too large. Hell, Boston Basin is gigantic. Why can't there be a special zone under Forbidden for climbers? Or say, 1 spot at the W ridge for bivying? OTOH, the permit system has driven climbers to do this route C2C and I know from first-hand experience that even with a permit you can get caught in a huge cluster-f* involving C2C climbers (no permit required) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off_White Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I recently made a trip into the Sawtooth Wilderness in Idaho, including the very popular Saddleback Lakes basin below the Elephant's Perch, and let me tell you, the permit hassles were epic. I had to fill out a card at the trailhead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 I recently made a trip into the Sawtooth Wilderness in Idaho, including the very popular Saddleback Lakes basin below the Elephant's Perch, and let me tell you, the permit hassles were epic. I had to fill out a card at the trailhead. I also find it bizarre how every location has its own "rules" - even when they fall under the same ultimate jurisdiction. For example, in MRNP (NPS), the permit system is based by total number of climbers - so there are say 100 slots open at Camp Muir (or whatever the # is), not based on the # of *parties*. But at Boston Basin, Torment, Forbidden, Triumph x-country zone - etc, all of which are managed by the NPS as well, the quotas are based by # of parties, irrespective of size. In the Olympics you can register for permits a month out (Flapjack Lakes, Glacier Meadows) - in NOCA... nope, one night prior - unless you are a guide service. Then there are some places where the maximum party size is 6 and others where it is 12. Then you switch over to the NFS and get different rules and different registration systems (e.g. the Enchantments). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurthicks Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 I gotta say that I agree with everything that's being said on here. 4 out of 6 spots for guide services seems to be a bit much (full disclosure: I work for a major PNW guide service). I would support having 2 under a reservation system (which, btw, is standard on NPS managed lands from what I know), and the remainder are first come, first served. The zones are too big. Bivying at the notch of the West Ridge of Forbidden is simply not the same as camping in Boston Basin. Perhaps they should cap the group size to 6, but allow more permits. Or, as suggested above, have a maximum number of folks instead of a max number of groups. I'm sure it's easier for the Park to manage 6 groups (issuing and checking permits) than it would be to issue and check permits for more small groups. Not to mention that if they went to a non-group permit system, it could lead to increased resource damage due to having more groups camping in fragile alpine terrain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 I agree that it is confusing to have such widely different rules in different areas, KK, but I don't think that I would agree with any one-size-fits all approach. For example, at 10,000 feet on Mt. Rainier, where campers are setting their tents on snow, the 'issue" to the extent that there is one is simply one of raw numbers. In Boston Basin, it is about impact on the vegetation and the number of parties may well be more significant than the raw number of climbers. Similarly, there may be good reasons for variance in how long in advance you can reserve permits based on concerns including the staffing available to manage the system and the degree to which the permit area draws visitors from outside the local area (I presume that locals are more able to go next weekend if they phone in to find out that there are no permits available this weekend but that might not be true). For maximum group size I think there may be reasons to have different limits for different areas. A group of 12 on a peak climb like Forbidden completely ruins anybody else's day but a group of 12 on the Easton Glacier probably hurts nobody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 I agree that it is confusing to have such widely different rules in different areas, KK, but I don't think that I would agree with any one-size-fits all approach. For example, at 10,000 feet on Mt. Rainier, where campers are setting their tents on snow, the 'issue" to the extent that there is one is simply one of raw numbers. In Boston Basin, it is about impact on the vegetation and the number of parties may well be more significant than the raw number of climbers. Similarly, there may be good reasons for variance in how long in advance you can reserve permits based on concerns including the staffing available to manage the system and the degree to which the permit area draws visitors from outside the local area (I presume that locals are more able to go next weekend if they phone in to find out that there are no permits available this weekend but that might not be true). For maximum group size I think there may be reasons to have different limits for different areas. A group of 12 on a peak climb like Forbidden completely ruins anybody else's day but a group of 12 on the Easton Glacier probably hurts nobody. this year the Boston Basin was 95+% snow covered in mid-July. If vegetation/impact were the issue, there should have been nolimit as all camping could have been done on snow or rocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 I'm curious if most or all of the groups that go to Boston Basin are climbing. Also, I don't understand why the trail is so crappy (I haven't been in a few years so am just going from reports from others this year). If the rangers are going up and down a lot and this area is popular, why isn't the trail better maintained? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Also, I don't understand why the trail is so crappy (I haven't been in a few years so am just going from reports from others this year). If the rangers are going up and down a lot and this area is popular, why isn't the trail better maintained? I have heard that folks have tried to go in there and do volunteer maintenance but were blocked by the powers that be personally I think the trail has improved some over the last 7 years, but yeah, parts of it suck a bit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurthicks Posted September 2, 2011 Share Posted September 2, 2011 Also, I don't understand why the trail is so crappy (I haven't been in a few years so am just going from reports from others this year). If the rangers are going up and down a lot and this area is popular, why isn't the trail better maintained? it's because Boston Basin is zoned as "Trail-less" officially (perhaps the cross country zoning, I can't remember which is the official nomenclature). The NPS doesn't do maintenance, nor is volunteer maintenance allowed (though it seems to happen). That said, they do repair/restoration work if it gets too bad (same for the Eldorado area). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_Miller Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 Perhaps Kelly Bush, NOCA Wilderness District Ranger would care to weigh in here. She'd be the knowledgeable one with regard to our concerns regards Boston Basin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewisdsaxt143 Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Salutations, my name is lewis dsaxt Recently moved from Kansas, originally from Lincoln and to this day miss my home town. I have an awesome family,I love all cold weather , specially the summer and the heat. Business has been a part of my life for the last 6 years and most recently primarily on the Internet. I love to learn new things. With the economy as tough as it is right now, more and more people are seeking guidance from people who have walked the walk and can teach others how to benefit from what they went through. Message me if you need my help I am a designer in the field of Science project management software. I love to ask questions I volunteer for valid causes that help the environment. Its great to be a part of this Website and look forward to meeting you online here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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