Greeks Bearing Gifts....

[Jim]

....and what, specifically, pray tell, are you doing to insure that this ambitious agenda is passed in D.C.?

 

And - what specifically would be your recommendation to an incoming freshman, low on tuition cash and waiting for the inevitable windfall from said agenda, to do in the meantime?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

lying comes to Attila as easily as breathing. I have offered plenty of solutions, in particular the People's Budget put forward by the progressive caucus but entirely ignored by the corporate media, which is no accident.

 

So that is your "platform"? Exactly the contents of that link are what you propose, with no deviation or exception to anything?

 

You might try dropping your content-less stream of insults and babbling-terminology-spew and actually state a solution for once, j-bot.

[j_b]

....and what, specifically, pray tell, are you doing to insure that this ambitious agenda is passed in D.C.?

 

I never discuss my personal life on cc.com because of the thugs that troll these parts. Anyway, what I do otherwise may be interesting but it has no bearing on this discussion.

 

And - what specifically would be your recommendation to an incoming freshman, low on tuition cash and waiting for the inevitable windfall from said agenda, to do in the meantime?

 

First, I don't believe we are going through a rough patch and that things will be coming back to what they were. Second, I am very much at a loss to offer more than banalities to incoming freshmen on ways to deal with this period, except perhaps to make themselves heard.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Second, I am very much at a loss to offer more than banalities

 

Amen to that! You finally got it right!

[Jim]

Second, I am very much at a loss to offer more than banalities to incoming freshmen on ways to deal with this period, except perhaps to make themselves heard.

 

Well, that certainly isn't banal and will help pay the rent.

[prole]

What I object to is the notion that somehow this ranks up there with the the dark ages. We should be working for changing the dominant paradigm (sorry - couldn't help it)while marshalling what ever resources needed to get to where you want to go. What is the immediate alternative - arm waving and giving up according to some I suppose.

 

If that's how you feel, then it sounds like we're mostly misunderstanding each other. I'm neither arguing that our present compares to the Dark Ages (though the global ecological picture is certainly worse than it's ever been in human history) or that we should look to replicate an imagined past (though it's clear America is in generational decline). What I am arguing is that in terms of medium-term trends (30-50 years) we are witnessing a number of interrelated crises generated from, yes the dominant, very specific paradigm of laissez-faire capitalism. And you are exactly right, apart from rolling back the deregulation, privatization, concentrated corporate political power, America's role as policeman for global capital, etc. we (by we I mean the broad Left) lacks the kind of vision and program necessary both for instituting these reforms and long term paradigm change. What is frustrating is that, in the absence of a programs and strategies capable of presenting immediate solutions that offer real alternatives to the status quo, much of the broad Left is simply accepting the narratives and prescriptions presented by the very same actors that created and seek to benefit from crisis. Further austerity, diminished life expectations, acceptance of a cynical and debased political system coupled with a narrowed definition of freedom visited upon citizenry that frankly hasn't really benefited from the wealth that was created, are not really answers in the immediate, medium, or long term. If you care about people and in long term change, and it sounds like you do, then it's as much up to you to imagine and present visions, strategies, and solutions that challenge the current configurations of power instead demanding ones cut from whole cloth and then turning away from your better impulses when they're not forthcoming.

[Jim]

What I object to is the notion that somehow this ranks up there with the the dark ages. We should be working for changing the dominant paradigm (sorry - couldn't help it)while marshalling what ever resources needed to get to where you want to go. What is the immediate alternative - arm waving and giving up according to some I suppose.

 

If that's how you feel, then it sounds like we're mostly misunderstanding each other. ................ If you care about people and in long term change, and it sounds like you do, then it's as much up to you to imagine and present visions, strategies, and solutions that challenge the current configurations of power instead demanding ones cut from whole cloth and then turning away from your better impulses when they're not forthcoming.

 

Thanks for a thoughtful reply.

 

And I think the end of this narrative is the crux of the matter - there are better strategies for the long term (though we might disagree on what is needed on the state level in WA to deal with present realities) BUT - these will require hard work from folks who envision such changes. And from what I've seen, most folks, especially on the liberal end of the spectrum, tend to see their responsibilities in a democracy end when the seal their ballot, stamp it, and drop in the mail.

 

Obama, for example - thinks that his milky version of a right leaning agenda is the only game in town for the Dems precisely because there have been no consequence from his chosen actions. Maybe because doing something interferes with the Deperate Housewives of NJ or whatever, but I see little movement from the masses to make me think the needle on the meter is going to move much away from the right.

[tvashtarkatena]

lying comes to Attila as easily as breathing. I have offered plenty of solutions, in particular the People's Budget put forward by the progressive caucus but entirely ignored by the corporate media, which is no accident.

 

So that is your "platform"? Exactly the contents of that link are what you propose, with no deviation or exception to anything?

 

You might try dropping your content-less stream of insults and babbling-terminology-spew and actually state a solution for once, j-bot.

 

You could, of course, pre-emptively do the same. It might just be a bit more persuasive.

[tvashtarkatena]

Of course, if you're just setting ole j_b up for a roasting, game theory teaches us that it'll take about 2 postings for the j_b/KKK stream-of-incontinence to start flowing again.

[tvashtarkatena]

BTW, the Progressive Caucus needs to update it's marketing materials...50 years is a long time for one campaign. It might learn a thing or two about the connotative meaning of titles from its foes. The 'People's' Budget? Might as well included a Che T with each copy. "Nobody Listens!" No shit, Sherlock.

 

Hire a PR firm that knows what its doing and play the game at the pro level or just stay home and renovate the yurt or something.

Edited June 23, 2011 by tvashtarkatena

[tvashtarkatena]

Quad posting. Definitely crazed.

[prole]

Maybe a celebrity endorsement from Jon Stewart would do the trick!

[tvashtarkatena]

That would actually be a good start. You gotta work with the world you got to make the world you want.

[j_b]

BTW, the Progressive Caucus needs to update it's marketing materials...50 years is a long time for one campaign. It might learn a thing or two about the connotative meaning of titles from its foes. The 'People's' Budget? Might as well included a Che T with each copy. "Nobody Listens!" No shit, Sherlock.

 

Hire a PR firm that knows what its doing and play the game at the pro level or just stay home and renovate the yurt or something.

 

what a clueless moron. The corporate media doesn't report on anything that progressives do irrespective of marketing or how many people participate.

[prole]

"The master's tools will never dismantle the master's house."

[tvashtarkatena]

People who are serious about progressive change don't pay much attention to a program that describes the way the world should be. Providing a feasible, step by step plan go get to that world, one that takes politics into account, packs a lot more punch. This requires a long game, serious fund raising, a professional level of organization, getting feedback from the voting public, and negotiating with the enemy, however. Otherwise, it's just another groovy idea.

Edited June 23, 2011 by tvashtarkatena

[tvashtarkatena]

BTW, the Progressive Caucus needs to update it's marketing materials...50 years is a long time for one campaign. It might learn a thing or two about the connotative meaning of titles from its foes. The 'People's' Budget? Might as well included a Che T with each copy. "Nobody Listens!" No shit, Sherlock.

 

Hire a PR firm that knows what its doing and play the game at the pro level or just stay home and renovate the yurt or something.

 

what a clueless moron. The corporate media doesn't report on anything that progressives do irrespective of marketing or how many people participate.

 

I don't know if you consider the ACLU progressive or not (I'd wager not), but we get reported on all the time at all levels. Working the media is one of many necessary skills for any serious advocacy organization. If you're not willing to do even that much, then you don't deserve anyone's hard earned cash, time, or energy - there are more productive places for those to go.

Edited June 23, 2011 by tvashtarkatena

[j_b]

People who are serious about progressive change don't pay much attention to a program that describes the way the world should be. Providing a feasible, step by step plan go get to that world, one that takes politics into account, packs a lot more punch. This requires a long game, serious fund raising, a professional level of organization, getting feedback from the voting public, and negotiating with the enemy, however. Otherwise, it's just another groovy idea.

 

we'll talk about it in 2012 when you shake in your boots because most people (who are progressive on issues) aren't energized to vote for another round of capitulation.

[tvashtarkatena]

"The master's tools will never dismantle the master's house."

 

Well, therein lies the rub. Neither I nor my advocacy colleagues consider anyone their masters.

 

The rich aren't going to make it easy to gang up on them so you can take their stuff, regardless of how necessary it is (and it most certainly is). You gotta be good to pull that one off.

 

But hey, if you just want to party, that's cool.

 

No forfeit required.

[prole]

People who are serious about progressive change don't pay much attention to a program that describes the way the world should be. Providing a feasible, step by step plan go get to that world, one that takes politics into account, packs a lot more punch. This requires a long game, serious fund raising, a professional level of organization, getting feedback from the voting public, and negotiating with the enemy, however. Otherwise, it's just another groovy idea.

 

Which people? In your work, don't you operate under the assumption that everyone should have equal protections under the law? Maybe I misunderstood you, but your statements on this board implied that you thought everyone should have access to health care. Maybe our fields of should are just more or less wide. As far as politics go, politics (when defined as a field of struggle over power) is all there is, I've never posted anything here that would suggest otherwise.

[tvashtarkatena]

People who are serious about progressive change don't pay much attention to a program that describes the way the world should be. Providing a feasible, step by step plan go get to that world, one that takes politics into account, packs a lot more punch. This requires a long game, serious fund raising, a professional level of organization, getting feedback from the voting public, and negotiating with the enemy, however. Otherwise, it's just another groovy idea.

 

we'll talk about it in 2012 when you shake in your boots because most people (who are progressive on issues) aren't energized to vote for another round of capitulation.

 

Being a ripe old codger, I don't shake in my boots much. The tide comes in, the tide goes out. I do what I can; sometimes my side wins, sometimes not. It's a never ending struggle; the dumbfucks are not in short supply, and I hear they're making more of them.

 

I'm not sure you speak for what 'progressives' will do in the next election. I hope that everyone will weigh the pros and cons of their voting decisions and act accordingly. It's almost always a lesser of two evils choice; the adults among us understand that. I put very little faith in the judgement of my countrymen, for obvious reasons, however. The trick is to get to enough of them to tip the scales a wee bit in our favor on occasion.

 

Still, if there's any country in the world that needs reform, given its stage front position, its ours. I could run away to New Zealand or some such, but it's too fun battling the Kooky Kristians and Libertariofascistas. My viewpoint doesn't involve so much defeatism because of a raft of historical wins my advocacy organization has enjoyed recently - and next year may even be better if we play our cards right.

[j_b]

the people have already shown what they are likely to do when they didn't show up in 2010. My guess is that with the economy and unemployment going nowhere better, plus all the "compromises" (think almost complete cave in) that Obama is about to make on cuts, that the odds of his reelection aren't very good irrespective of his opponent. We already know how effective the corporate media is at presenting a sub par candidate (think Reagan, Bush,..) as if he were the next savior.

[tvashtarkatena]

People who are serious about progressive change don't pay much attention to a program that describes the way the world should be. Providing a feasible, step by step plan go get to that world, one that takes politics into account, packs a lot more punch. This requires a long game, serious fund raising, a professional level of organization, getting feedback from the voting public, and negotiating with the enemy, however. Otherwise, it's just another groovy idea.

 

Which people? In your work, don't you operate under the assumption that everyone should have equal protections under the law? Maybe I misunderstood you, but your statements on this board implied that you thought everyone should have access to health care. Maybe our fields of should are just more or less wide. As far as politics go, politics (when defined as a field of struggle over power) is all there is, I've never posted anything here that would suggest otherwise.

 

Given you postings, I think we're talking about a difference in attitude, not viewpoint. We worship one thing here: Money, and we're paying the price for that on a very personal level. How do we turn America to a values based society? One issue at a time, I'd wager. Money will always be an important practicality, but it would be nice not to see American's sell their privacy, altruism, satisfaction, and health so cheaply.

 

For example, I was at a fambly gathering this week and heard a tea bagger go on about how we should legalize drugs but allow insurance companies to charge them extra. Sounds really reasonable, right - until you get to the details, which, of course, would involve mandatory drug testing for all insured. Ie, to save a few bucks a year, this 'libertarian' was willing to give up a substantial aspect of his privacy - even down to his bodily fluids.

 

The other side's arguments are invariably weak. It's not an intellectual or fact based movement - hence, its kooky followers. I prefer exploiting those inherent weaknesses to throwing up my hands over them.

 

The difference is a glass half full versus empty one. I see a steady stream of progressive victories over the years that has not stopped - in fact, I believe its accelerating right now. That tempers the obvious disappointments that continue, and will continue, to occur in a country half full of redneck dumbshits. Things go in opposite directions simultaneously here all the time - that's Merka, for ya.

 

I also see that it's never been any different. Fighting for progressive change is more like digging a ditch that floods and partly fills in every winter - what do you do? You just keep digging. It's not sexy, but having the partially draining ditch is better than none. You can take comfort thinking of the day when winter stops coming and you can stop digging.

 

I also don't blame other conspiratorial forces (the media, for example) when, for example, the ACLU loses. Not everything is in our control - we can't force judges to vote a certain way. We do the best we can given what we can influence (and the media is definitely in that category); past that, the chips will fall where they will.

 

[Jim]

People who are serious about progressive change don't pay much attention to a program that describes the way the world should be. Providing a feasible, step by step plan go get to that world, one that takes politics into account, packs a lot more punch. This requires a long game, serious fund raising, a professional level of organization, getting feedback from the voting public, and negotiating with the enemy, however. Otherwise, it's just another groovy idea.

 

we'll talk about it in 2012 when you shake in your boots because most people (who are progressive on issues) aren't energized to vote for another round of capitulation.

 

Being a ripe old codger, I don't shake in my boots much. The tide comes in, the tide goes out. I do what I can; sometimes my side wins, sometimes not. It's a never ending struggle; the dumbfucks are not in short supply, and I hear they're making more of them.

 

I'm not sure you speak for what 'progressives' will do in the next election. I hope that everyone will weigh the pros and cons of their voting decisions and act accordingly. It's almost always a lesser of two evils choice; the adults among us understand that. I put very little faith in the judgement of my countrymen, for obvious reasons, however. The trick is to get to enough of them to tip the scales a wee bit in our favor on occasion.

 

Still, if there's any country in the world that needs reform, given its stage front position, its ours. I could run away to New Zealand or some such, but it's too fun battling the Kooky Kristians and Libertariofascistas. My viewpoint doesn't involve so much defeatism because of a raft of historical wins my advocacy organization has enjoyed recently - and next year may even be better if we play our cards right.

 

Reality based constructs - what a concept!!

[tvashtarkatena]

the people have already shown what they are likely to do when they didn't show up in 2010. My guess is that with the economy and unemployment going nowhere better, plus all the "compromises" (think almost complete cave in) that Obama is about to make on cuts, that the odds of his reelection aren't very good irrespective of his opponent. We already know how effective the corporate media is at presenting a sub par candidate (think Reagan, Bush,..) as if he were the next savior.

 

Being a ripe old codger, I know that things can change quite a bit in two years, and that every action has a reaction. I also know that in a country half full of dumbshits, the prez gets blamed for unemployment. Then again, I also know that incumbents have a huge advantage. Then again....

 

...we'll see.