JosephH Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 Been out there 30+ times this year and we've had the place entirely to ourselves until Sunday when two parties came down, both with Olson's book in hand. again JosephH demonstrates his mastery of hyperbole: 2 other parties on a sunday hardly amounts to the crag being overrun. Except that I didn't say anything about the amount of traffic whatsoever. I said the first parties I've seen in 30+ trips out there this year were both down there because of his book. Beyond that I didn't say anything about the place being 'overrun', crowded or anything else. What it is a clear sign of is the 'guide' has started driving traffic of people with little leading or outside climbing experience down to the place. Bad enough he included it at all, but to do so without explicitly warning about the dangers of navigating the cliff top is irresponsible. Ditto if he didn't explicitly mention to not park on the north side of Rt. 14. Overall it was just a dick thing to do including it but then, just like with Beacon in the past, there was no stopping him. Hopefully he didn't 'star' any routes this time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevetimetravlr Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Overall it was just a dick thing to do including it but then, just like with Beacon in the past, there was no stopping him. Hopefully he didn't 'star' any routes this time... you said "dick". Didn't you read your new agreement with Cascadeclimbers.com, I guess not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 Was there something about it the first time you just didn't get...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 again JosephH demonstrates his mastery of hyperbole: 2 other parties on a sunday hardly amounts to the crag being overrun. I don’t think Joseph is saying that as much as the fact that he thinks Tim is at fault for: A) Producing a book that Joesph doesn’t approve of. B) Not adequately informing folks of the danger. For myself, I believe that is false criticism on both counts, and think we should share as we have an obligation to fellow climbers. It falls on us to help out people who are in need if we can be of some assistance to them. We should share with our bros if we can and be INclusive instead of EXclusive. Especially a place so close to town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevetimetravlr Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 For myself, I believe that is false criticism on both counts and I also think we have an obligation to fellow climbers. It falls on us to help out people who are in need if we can be of some assistance to them. Furthermore, we should share with our bros if we can and be INclusive instead of EXclusive. So are you saying that we should have Joseph committed Bill? Alright, I reluctantly agree. But he'll just be another guy on the government dole in a rubber room, seems hardly fair...to us taxpayers. I've seen Tim's new book. and its super RAD!!! Tons of new routes, tons of info, great photos. I can hardly wait to get a copy to try all the new stuff, and see what crags I can rap into. i CAN'T BELIEVE tIM DIDN'T INCLUDE A WARNING AGAINST PEOPLE RAPPING INTO CRAGS, ITS SEEMS SO.....UNCLIMBER LIKE. rAPPING THAT IS. nO, REVERSE THAT. People can't be responsible for their actions, and everyone should always stay on the trail and be counted, those a-holes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 Well, it's ok with me that you, Opdycke and others all flip-flopped on him including it once it was clear there was no stopping him - definitely your prerogative, just not mine. But I don't recall you or Opdycke being INclusive back when you objected to it being included. I simply disagree with you on both points and find it kind of funny you think there's no obligation to warn people of objective hazards or potential parking problems, but there is some obligation to tell them about the place versus just letting them find there way down when they're ready. Seems a bit odd to be one way on the one and the opposite on the other. I'd say there is no obligation to tell anyone about the objective dangers if you just don't tell them about the place at all. And maybe someone could clue Steve into the fact that until basically a few months ago Opdycke was still vociferously against Olson having included Beacon in the guide back when it first came out (and in subsequent editions). Times, clearly, they are a'changing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 mike and i had the joint to ourselves today - quite 'skeetery - that climb of yours bill to the left of the headwall (sweet tits?) seems to be missing the pins i recalled it sported, plus as blackberries growing like mad all over it) - fell like a dipshit on the upper part of day of atonement and smacked my heel right nice and ended up hobbling out - nice to see a 00 hold its own generally, the blackberries seem to be raging over a lot of the once clean wall - reckon ozone just doesn't have those bastards quite so prolifically? the headwall didn't appear to have been climbed in a good while - lot of the ledgelets had full on dirt w/ root-masses grown back in hardly a place worth rowing about - you can do damn near everything worth messing w/ in a day - best crag in the pdx area for little kids i think, provided you do the east side trail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 No surprise you were alone out there. Pretty much the norm. Bummer about your heel, the Atonement sequences both up the headwall on the thin crack and the final arete/slot are pretty technical, but as you said the pro is solid. And yeah, a days worth - but if you can lead all the routes from 'Dark Horse' to 'Freak Freely' in a day before Beacon opens you're in pretty fucking burly shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 No surprise you were alone out there. Pretty much the norm. Bummer about your heel, the Atonement sequences both up the headwall on the thin crack and the final arete/slot are pretty technical, but as you said the pro is solid. And yeah, a days worth - but if you can lead all the routes from 'Dark Horse' to 'Freak Freely' in a day before Beacon opens you're in pretty fucking burly shape. FACT: THE HATE TRANE IS GOING THE WRONG DERECTION BRAH Seriously, thanks for putting the warning out there. It's the right thing to do and I should have started with that. You might consider that folks are trying to make light hearted jokes, and not actually attacking you and trying to give you actual grief up thread:-) I went to put it on Mt Project yesterday and saw you had that covered already -thanks for that as well. I also (re)saw that Adam had seriously condensed the info and remembered that it was due to Kevbone calling him elitist. LOL! I suspect that this oversight of warning was my bad, as it was most likely a carry over from my earlier guidebook/route list wherein Jim had insisted that we have a statement in there about something to the effect that the topropes were all meant to be done left alone (unbolted) and TR after getting to the tops of the nearby lead climbs. He wanted the use of bolts minimized so that folks had the chance to grow as climbers and learn how to place gear....and no one forsaw this. Again, no one would want some beginner to do themselves in, and stupidity isn't really a laughing matter either, hopefully you steered them right and they learned something. (ie, learned to trust what their own eyes are telling them) mike and i had the joint to ourselves today - quite 'skeetery - that climb of yours bill to the left of the headwall (sweet tits?) seems to be missing the pins i recalled it sported, plus as blackberries growing like mad all over it) - fell like a dipshit on the upper part of day of atonement and smacked my heel right nice and ended up hobbling out - nice to see a 00 hold its own generally, the blackberries seem to be raging over a lot of the once clean wall - reckon ozone just doesn't have those bastards quite so prolifically? the headwall didn't appear to have been climbed in a good while - lot of the ledgelets had full on dirt w/ root-masses grown back in hardly a place worth rowing about - you can do damn near everything worth messing w/ in a day - best crag in the pdx area for little kids i think, provided you do the east side trail Say hi to MikeR for me Ivan. Since Chad and I did his line, I've been back a couple of times this year and also didn't see anyone. Rapped and thoroughly cleaned and toproped Freak Freely and also solo led and cleaned (somewhat) Child Abuse. As Bryan suggested and Tim intimates at the start of the description in the book, it's a more dangerous place, a few bolts wouldn't hurt. Last time I was there the pins were still in Sweet Fucker. I had gone back a second time to put in that 2nd pin in so as to make it a better lead with less groundfall potential. If the pins won't be staying cause they are probably on someones rack now, there should be bolts put in where needed. Bryan had already suggested a bolt or 2 in Boo Coup and I'd said fine. (Didn't see that happen yet, and apologize again if he's a tad gunshy about running out there to do it) But I should mention what I said to him as well, if you are going to put some in just make sure to stick them in the right place and correctly is all Ivan. I concur that the Kiddy Litter spot will be nice for the munchkins once it's clean. I expect, and hope, to see you, Benny and Evanson there with the whole daycare crew at some point:-) That spot is an easy place to get a toprope on from the top and an exception to the warning. Maybe a good spot for those beginners as well. FACT: HEEL UP BRAH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Well, it's ok with me that you, Opdycke and others all flip-flopped on him including it Why was it all up to Jim to include or not? Because in fact it wasn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Bone is correct in the sense that Jon Stewart sent his route list into Tim and that pretty much guaranteed it would be in the book. If you go back and look, you will see that I didn't believe it was Jon or my call if it went into the book but Jim's. Jon disagreed with that:-) It all worked out though. I've been working with Tim on other stuff so I'm not "anti-book", just that I didn't think it was my decision to make for this spot. Bone, is it true that the condition was that the condition of getting Jon's list was that Tim had to print the First Ascentionists names? I think I saw something like that on CC.com earlier but don't remember if that is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Bone, is it true that the condition was that the condition of getting Jon's list was that Tim had to print the First Ascentionists names? I think I saw something like that on CC.com earlier but don't remember if that is correct. I am not aware of any condition like the one you mention. But you are right about one thing. What is done is done. Take care! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Well, I could have asked Jon or Tim, but then I wouldn't have a way to change the header to "Farside". You win! I'm out of things to talk about and done beating this issue to death. I can't match your posting volume Kev. Dropzone is the new header I give up. Take care! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Say it an't so...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 ...and not actually attacking you and trying to give you actual grief up thread:-) Look, I have no problem with Kevin or Steve or anyone else not liking me. Don't like me, don't climb with me - really, I'm more than ok with that. But it would be helpful if Kevin and Steve could stay on topic and, when they are flipping me shit, if they could strive for a bit more creative and interesting a read. it's a more dangerous place, a few bolts wouldn't hurt. I couldn't disagree more. It's back to I thought it was about "keeping it real" to quote Opdycke, but folks are certainly free to do what they want with their own routes. Well, it's ok with me that you, Opdycke and others all flip-flopped on him including it Why was it all up to Jim to include or not? Because in fact it wasn't. I never said it was 'all up to Jim' or not - I simply stated they were against including it until it was obvious Tim was again going ignore those wishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Say it an't so...... LMAO! Thanks! I don't have it in me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Say it an't so...... LMAO! Thanks! I don't have it in me. Ah....but you do. You are only a couple a thousand posts back....lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 I never said it was 'all up to Jim' or not - I simply stated they were against including it until it was obvious Tim was again going ignore those wishes. Yeah...but if he did not ignore Jim then he would be ignoring other developers wishes....you win some and you loose some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 I never said it was 'all up to Jim' or not - I simply stated they were against including it until it was obvious Tim was again going ignore those wishes. Yeah...but if he did not ignore Jim then he would be ignoring other developers wishes.... you win some and you loose some. Absolutely. But with Tim in this regard, you never win any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostCamKenny Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 this is fucking retarded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 16, 2011 Author Share Posted June 16, 2011 Ah, the last of the triplets roars - can't any of the three of you do better than that? Jesus, it's like an online version of the three stooges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 this is fucking retarded. you mean its The Interwebs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted June 16, 2011 Author Share Posted June 16, 2011 You guys need to queue off Ivan - he always thinks it through considering content, storyline, wit, humor, self-deprecation, and sarcasm when his fingers hit the key board. His posts show the same get-after-something spirit he does on rock. The bottom line is a little wit goes a long way when attempting to insult someone and also makes it worthwhile for the casual reader... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostCamKenny Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 oh joe, you big stud you... aren't you supposed to be out checking the falcon's cloacal temperature or something? don't you work? can't you find anything better to do besides try to play rock police in your spare time? i mean seriously... you stay up at all hours playing on your computer, posting BS and other nonsense and then when you finally do have a point with which i could agree, you take it to a limit that still makes me want to curb you! do you enjoy being that much of an asshole or is that just yer genes? i have tried for several years to think that you actually have a heart and a brain, but perhaps you should just join dorothy, the cowardly lion, the scarecrow, and the tin man, and go get what they are gettin, cause you really need an adjustment in life. of course, the sad truth here is that you are an old fart, set in your ways, and resistant to change and an opinion that might differ from your own. the really sad part of it is that you are trying to take others down to this level by doing what you did with this post. your negativity is something that no climber in their right mind would ever put in a stone's-throwing distance of themselves. the point of climbing for many of us is to bring ourselves up to the level of the climb - to learn something, to experience something bigger - but you want to bring everything down and discourage the growth and education that comes from venturing out into the unknown. why can't you just mind yer own business and let those who want to explore and experience do just that? learn by doing is the best way; learn from experience - ONE'S OWN EXPERIENCE, not your experience posted up here for everyone to read and then say to themselves, "oh this guy must really know what he's talking about to put it on an internet message board - i think i'll listen to him..." your experience is not what the world needs to be saved so maybe you should have someone take the nails out of your hands and feet and come on down to earth and live like the rest of us. if an accident is going to happen out there, or anywhere for that matter, there is nothing - if anything - that you will be able to do about it. i've heard the stories of your solo to rescue some folks (was it in utah or red rocks?) and that is both bold and selfless - two traits that i would never have pinned on you with the way you type on this message board - and are the fibers of a true climber. why can't you show those colors all the time instead of your bureaucratic, must-look-as-official-as-possible-for-the-public-and-all-others-who-may-see-you attitude? you might be able to climb some difficult rock , but you are far from a true climber! and while i am at it, bill, i understand you are a great guy and you got that way by being level-headed and open-minded. but why do you let JH just get on with this shit the way he does? i mean, really... in private when we are all conspiring against the world and setting our plans to control and dominate the human race, everyone agrees that JH is misguided and shouldn't be allowed to be a spokesperson for anything (JO has many times told me how much he regrets telling JH what needed to be done and what to do b/c JH has taken it to a place that JO never thought it would get to), and here there is lots of support and lots of opposition for a silly post that JH put up about a place that is silly itself, for the silly reason of appearing to be the experience of the place. this isn't just directed at you bill, btw, but to all those who will agree w/JH to his face and then behind his back agree that he is misguided and needs to be checked. everyone here (who has anything to do with climbing in this area) that has a problem with JH should be stepping up and voicing it, not hiding it because they want to secure a belayer or falsely call him a friend. i'm not against being a friend to someone, but when there is no effort on the other party's part to put themselves in my stinky shoes then they aren't worth any of my trouble... and that goes for every fuckin last one of you reading this! what i am saying directly to you, bill, is that i absolutely cannot stand how you will agree with me that certain things JH says, types, or does are not acceptable, and then you help to defend him here on the message board without even a little bit of defense for what is really being talked about. who's side are you on, anyway? seriously. you are a wonderful friend and i value your opinion and friendship very much or i wouldn't bother with telling you all this BS - especially on an open forum. we all know that JH is a pile of BS, nonsense, and whimsical climbing experience so why do we let him stand out as if he speaks for our entire community. JH's voice is heard because he is loud on the internet. climbing does not occur on the internet, though, unfortunately for JH, so it is time to actually step forward and speak out against the BS of JH. ok joe, go ahead... hack this up into little pieces, defend your "honor" by revealing to everyone else here how stupid i am and how nothing i say or do makes any sense at all. you are going to write something that sounds really good and reads pretty well and, on the surface, looks pretty valid, but lost in all your response bullshit will lie the fact that you are such an asshole that you have to respond to make yourself look better in any way that you are able. go for it - i know you are full of it, and so do tons of others, whether they will admit it or do the chickenshit thing and shine in your face and then talk your pitfalls behind your back. go ahead and respond to this because you'll show that i am right when you do. c'mon, i dare ya. fucking nancy! 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JosephH Posted June 16, 2011 Author Share Posted June 16, 2011 Dude, a little overboard, but that's the spirit, man! But let's be clear here, I speak for no one but myself and in no way represent anyone else, particularly and most especially Beacon 'locals'. I'd also point out Opdycke had nothing to do with initiating my work on Beacon anchors and little involvement beyond the odd consult and keeping him abreast of what was getting replaced. No aspect of it related to anything he felt 'needed to be done' other than my attempts to accommodate him as much as possible. Two of those accommodations resulted in the most outcry and were the only bolts subsequently removed. P.S. What you and your little drama club thinks of me really keeps me up nights... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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