Fux Freakout

[j_b]

you are a scumbag for evading the issue once again: where did you disprove my many examples of recent use of terror by western powers?

Edited February 12, 2011 by j_b

[KaskadskyjKozak]

you are a scumbag for evading the issue once again

 

And what are you for hurling yet another lame insult, you Internet Tough Guy.

[j_b]

still no answer on the substance of the argument

[j_b]

people who pretend to discuss an issue and keep not answering to the point are cheating scumbags.

[kevbone]

.

 

 

 

I just had to post in this very important thread.

[prole]

You seem to confuse quantity with quality. There is nothing in Jay's post to argue against.

 

Sure there is. And it can be done with more than a one word scatological retort. However, that would require YOU to actually be serious and exert some sort of effort. Try and do it without throwing in the gratuitous insults - I bet you can't.

 

I dealt with what I thought to be the core of Jay's argument in a substantive manner pages ago. You can go back and read that if you'd like. I'm not going to engage in some endless Kafkaesque back and forth just because Jay would rather start over again at square one with a bunch of easily dismissed nonsense than deal with what's already been said. However, if you want to take up the challenge of substantiating his leftistislamoappeaser claims by pointing out some real world examples, I'm sure he could use all the help he can get.

[j_b]

Attila arrived more than 2 pages ago and we still can't get a straight answer out of that troll.

[j_b]

2 years of "lick sack", 2 pages of grammar and evasions, and still no answers from Attila.

[Kimmo]

symptomatic of the success JayB appears to have with his smooth talking, dodging, cherry picking, etc ...

 

You are being hysterical.

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Pure diarrhea. Where on earth do you get this stuff? Seriously. I'm sure given the vastness of the internet as well as the frequency and stridency of this oft repeated, if "seldom referenced", claim you can find ample examples of leftist intellectuals making this argument. Please enlighten us!

 

Your response typifies your style of "debate". As usual JayB posts a long argument, which you simply dismiss, along with some vapid insults. And you actually expect people to engage you seriously in discussion - there's nothing serious yet alone substantive that you have to offer. And your meme twin is not different.

 

While 'long' may equate to 'good' when measuring some things, I've never heard it being called a success criteria for an argument.

 

Jay has, in his typically verbose manner, outlined a fantasy - basically a parroting of Right Wing blog messaging ala Beck ,etc. 'Apologism = support for clitoral trimming and all that"

 

MattP simply observed how ridiculous Jays statement is. When someone comes up with something this stupid and outrageous, few words are required to call it what it is.

Edited February 12, 2011 by tvashtarkatena

[tvashtarkatena]

If, for example, you look at efforts to reform human rights around the world and here at home, you find a deep gap between the Left, who support and actively fight for such reform, and the Right, who either do nothing or actively oppose it.

 

I would argue that most Americans would like to see stoning and the like ended. The Right supports violent force - invasion and drone strikes, ostensibly to make this happen. The result has been a society completely destroyed and ongoing human disaster at a national scale. The Right has also consistently supported authoritarian regimes, like Mubaraks, of sociopathic thugs who have wrought misery on both their people and their countries' economies. In addition, the Right has consistently worked to bring down emerging regimes chosen by the people to be governed by them.

 

In stark contrast, the Left has worked to end the U.S. long standing policies of supporting civil rights abusers and military force, which has proven to compound a societies miseries many times over, support education and understanding around the cultures we're dealing with so that we can deal with them in a constructive, rather than destructive, manner.

 

Jay's assumption is that muslims are incapable of governing themselves in a civilized manner, and must be reformed by force...despite present horrific evidence to the contrary. To support this, he probably bought all the fudged graphs showing 'progress in Iraq', crafted for the boyz who only took good news for an answer even while the country into pre-Babylonian chaos.

 

Some of us view the Muslim world as equals, with an equal claim to the right to a secular, democratic government. Some of us believe that we all share a basic human nature that values self determination, stability, the laws and institutions that provide them, and freedom of secular or religious expression. Some of believe that no people deserve or will put up with humiliation.

 

We have destroyed Iraq forever by not allowing them their own revolution. In our paternal/imperial zeal, we've taken that self generated rebirth, which provides a foundation of strength, shared values, and unity for any society, away from them forever. They will always be a colonial frankenstein, repeatedly beaten down by people far, far away with other things on their minds.

 

And there in lies the difference between Right and Left. How each views the human spirit. The Right sees different species, us and them, the Left sees a common species with common desires. The Right sees force as its primary too, the Left sees reciprocity and example as being the way forward to a better world.

[tvashtarkatena]

I haven't done anything to personally check any of the bits of retrograde barbarism practiced in the name of any particular religion here or abroad other than not engaging in it myself and perhaps sending a check every now and then. I didn't do anything to stop the slaughter in Rwanda either, but that doesn't render it impossible for me to form moral judgments against either genocide via machete or stoning adulteress' to death.

 

 

or you were once again subtly using this discussion as a pretext for drawing attention to your own heroic and seldom referenced contributions to the betterment of humanity, so I'll just leave that there unless you want to keep it going.

 

 

 

Yup. That's what I've noticed from the Right. A lot of opinions, a lot of whining, but no...constructive action. Ignorant of the problem their dealing with. Poor planning. Disastrous results. Oh, I knew my query would draw the oft repeated attention whore personal attack - that was a given.

 

In contrast, most of the Lefties I know are extremely active in a variety of effective causes to try to reduce human misery. We push self determination, which does not include the kind of invasions you supported, or the humiliation the Right so enjoys to inflict. We realize that the U.S. most powerful weapon is to lead by example, and, due to the Right Wing policies of torture, detention, occupation, assassination, and support of tyranny, we've set a rather poor one. Many of us actively fight to keep religious zealotry and favoritism out of our government here, which allows the U.S. to credibly support attempts to do the same elsewhere.

Edited February 12, 2011 by tvashtarkatena

[prole]

Ironically enough the most dyed-in-the-wool Leftist (a self-proclaimed small-"c" communist), Slavoj Zizek, quoted twice in this thread has explicitly rejected the "multiculti" frame in favor of the universalisms that have always been the foundation of Left politics.

 

The projection of appeasement and apology is a neat trick for the idolizers of an American foreign policy establishment that basically created modern day militant Islam (real and imagined) from scratch.

 

Once more for your enjoyment...

 

[video:youtube]

 

 

Edited February 12, 2011 by prole

[tvashtarkatena]

Oh, yeah, 'multiculturism'. You know someone lacks an argument when they resort to the world of 'isms', where theories can go at each other mano a mano in the rarified, emotion stirred ether, far, far above the messiness of basic human nature. Frankly, I have have no idea what Jay's trying to go with that or why.

 

Liberals believe in the universal rights of man entitled to everyone, everywhere as defined during the age of reason and as embodied, if imperfectly, in our Bill of Rights.

[prole]

The argument put forth in the film above suggests that, for some, individual freedom in liberal societies creates inherently unstable systems and that neo-conservatism and militant Islam developed somewhat symbiotically as a reaction against that instability.

 

The fantastical claims of a Left apologia for acts of terror and religious atrocities are simply a means for people like Jay to deal with the frustration of the liberal left's unwillingness to accept a reduction of the issues involved into a metaphysical clash of good and evil and instead seek answers in the historical development of actually existing phenomena and propose policies based on that analysis. Delving into history reveals far too many skeletons for people like Jay and the policy implications that follow have the potential to undermine the ongoing projects near and dear to the American foreign policy establishment and corporate capital. I'm not sure if there are some postmodern scholars out there on some relativist fringe preaching that suicide bombing and whore-stoning should be condoned out of respect for religious tolerance, but if there are, they have no relationship whatever with the historical Left or its philosophy.

 

 

Edited February 12, 2011 by prole

[Fairweather]

Just finished reading The Costs of Living by Barry Schwartz. The source of your moronism appears to reside in a similar co-opted form of psychology and philosophy--one that leads Schwartz to many of the same bogus conclusions. Carry on.

[prole]

Are you still kicking it around here? I thought you were only doing posts on political bloopers and spell-check appearances.

[tvashtarkatena]

Middle aged and typos still get him excited.

 

Ouch.

 

Oh well, it's something, I guess.

Edited February 12, 2011 by tvashtarkatena

[j_b]

symptomatic of the success JayB appears to have with his smooth talking, dodging, cherry picking, etc ...

 

You are being hysterical.

 

 

On the contrary, I am quite rational and I have stated these observations a number of times over many years as anyone familiar with my posting history knows. There are literally dozens of instances of these behaviors on JayB's part, including in this discussion. As a matter of fact, I have decided to call him 'King of the Dodge'.

 

As far you are concerned, you aren't very observant and you appear quite naive.

[j_b]

I didn't do anything to stop the slaughter in Rwanda either, but that doesn't render it impossible for me to form moral judgments against either genocide via machete or stoning adulteress' to death.

 

It's however particularly laughable to read you claiming to know which type of butchery is more morally objectionable.

[Kimmo]

On the contrary, I am quite rational and I have stated these observations a number of times over many years as anyone familiar with my posting history knows. There are literally dozens of instances of these behaviors on JayB's part, including in this discussion. As a matter of fact, I have decided to call him 'King of the Dodge'.

 

As far you are concerned, you aren't very observant and you appear quite naive.

 

your take appears similar to KKK's regarding prole's gun need in everett.

[prole]

Which judging by its longevity is the greatest troll ever.

[j_b]

I don't understand. Are you saying you were not being serious? It wasn't obvious, especially since many people around here claim to have some ability to understand people's psychology from their writing (or rather what they read into it). Anyway, sorry if I jumped to conclusions.

[Kimmo]

If, for example, you look at efforts to reform human rights around the world and here at home, you find a deep gap between the Left, who support and actively fight for such reform, and the Right, who either do nothing or actively oppose it.

 

I would argue that most Americans would like to see stoning and the like ended. The Right supports violent force - invasion and drone strikes, ostensibly to make this happen. The result has been a society completely destroyed and ongoing human disaster at a national scale. The Right has also consistently supported authoritarian regimes, like Mubaraks, of sociopathic thugs who have wrought misery on both their people and their countries' economies. In addition, the Right has consistently worked to bring down emerging regimes chosen by the people to be governed by them.

 

In stark contrast, the Left has worked to end the U.S. long standing policies of supporting civil rights abusers and military force, which has proven to compound a societies miseries many times over, support education and understanding around the cultures we're dealing with so that we can deal with them in a constructive, rather than destructive, manner.

 

Jay's assumption is that muslims are incapable of governing themselves in a civilized manner, and must be reformed by force...despite present horrific evidence to the contrary. To support this, he probably bought all the fudged graphs showing 'progress in Iraq', crafted for the boyz who only took good news for an answer even while the country into pre-Babylonian chaos.

 

Some of us view the Muslim world as equals, with an equal claim to the right to a secular, democratic government. Some of us believe that we all share a basic human nature that values self determination, stability, the laws and institutions that provide them, and freedom of secular or religious expression. Some of believe that no people deserve or will put up with humiliation.

 

We have destroyed Iraq forever by not allowing them their own revolution. In our paternal/imperial zeal, we've taken that self generated rebirth, which provides a foundation of strength, shared values, and unity for any society, away from them forever. They will always be a colonial frankenstein, repeatedly beaten down by people far, far away with other things on their minds.

 

And there in lies the difference between Right and Left. How each views the human spirit. The Right sees different species, us and them, the Left sees a common species with common desires. The Right sees force as its primary too, the Left sees reciprocity and example as being the way forward to a better world.

 

what exactly is your division between "right" and "left"?

 

who most exemplify these divisions?

[Kimmo]

Which judging by its longevity is the greatest troll ever.

 

i was hoping moon-dancing was, but i'm an egotist.