Merry Christmish

[ivan]

zen is the only way out of this mess

an angry aztec god might suffice as well, or is that the same sorta waiting-for-jesus-to-bring-the-porkchops kinda thing?

[prole]

How does responsible economics on the state site translate into opression in your view?

 

Don't get me wrong, the shit is hitting the fan big time. But the crisis is not limited to the current fiscal constraints on states and municipalities. As the original Mish piece makes clear (not that there aren't problems with it) the crisis is global and systemic. Any argument that doesn't address this fact doesn't pass a sniff test any more than Peter and Jay's newfound concern for food stamps and healthcare. At the risk of "getting all meta", ferry ticket takers and Metro bus drivers are only indicative of a larger questions that's facing the post-industrial world as a whole about what the hell we're going to do with all our people and what kind of society do we want to live in. There have developed serious contradictions between achieving maximum utility and efficiency in the economic realm and meeting the demands people have for living with a modicum of security, compensation, and hope for their future. Whether those people work for the government or not is irrelevant. Some appeal to the "private sector" as a model for how things should be run but one only need look at how the American worker has actually fared there to see that it's failing dramatically to meet those criteria. Is $16-$20 an hour unreasonable in this day and age? How is making more people redundant or reducing their purchasing power in the context of (permanent?) structural unemployment going to improve the outlook? How is is it likely to rebound on the political landscape? In the current anti-tax climate, is there really likely to be an improvement in service delivery (or god forbid an increase) corresponding to government worker layoffs and wage and benefit reductions? We certainly know there will be a corresponding increase in demand for those services in the event.

 

 

[Jim]

I would generally agree with this - yes, we're in a pickle. But because the skills necessary to make, say $75k or more a year have shifted to a greater need for advanced education and technology skills, we should prop up those who don't have those skills with jobs they could never get in the public sector; with tax money? That doesn't make sense.

 

Yes invest more in education, have a more progressive tax structure, trim the military budget in half. But - that doesn't aleviate state level politicians from making sustainable economic decisions that needed to happen years ago when the good times veiled the problems. It's here now and we have to deal.

[Fairweather]

While I agree that no one is worth what the CEO of Verizon gets - he isn't getting paid with my tax dollars.

 

[ivan]

While I agree that no one is worth what the CEO of Verizon gets - he isn't getting paid with my tax dollars.

indeed, but if government exists to level the playing field, to re-distribute wealth so that all live in relative prosperity, taxing the ceo then hiring & overpaying some ticket-taker w/ the ceo's tax money doesn't seem so outlandish

 

of course, i suspect a basic disagreement exists over wether government should in fact be doing the redistribution, and of course anyhow who thinks it shouldn't will of course want tax cuts for the rich and public unions to be shit-canned.

 

[Fairweather]

While I agree that no one is worth what the CEO of Verizon gets - he isn't getting paid with my tax dollars.

indeed, but if government exists to level the playing field, to re-distribute wealth so that all live in relative prosperity, taxing the ceo then hiring & overpaying some ticket-taker w/ the ceo's tax money doesn't seem so outlandish

 

of course, i suspect a basic disagreement exists over wether government should in fact be doing the redistribution, and of course anyhow who thinks it shouldn't will of course want tax cuts for the rich and public unions to be shit-canned.

 

You're confusing a level playing field with equal outcomes. Never. Gonna. Happen.

[ivan]

very possible as my econ 101 class met at 730, a cruel hour for so dry a subject fo'sure

 

equal outcomes i don't expect - sure, ceo guy is gonna live a much fatter lifestyle, and who am i to say he's doesn't deserve it? just saying that i don't have a problem w/ The Man taking his 5th extra porsche and paying a government street sweeper a living wage w/ it. not equal outcomes, beyond both dudes having enough to be happy.

 

i realize this makes me a communist - i look awesome in mao-suits - who doesn't?

Edited December 23, 2010 by ivan

[Fairweather]

All the shit that fat cat man buys has to get built, modified, value-added, and sold. That yacht, mansion, and sports car provide jobs--and tax revenue.

[ivan]

All the shit that fat cat man buys has to get built, modified, value-added, and sold. That yacht, mansion, and sports car provide jobs--and tax revenue.

sure - i'm aware an economy is a very large, complex thing - i also know that rich folks are just as likely to park their huge fortunes in savings for generations on end - the spice must flow, baron! use it or lose it?

[Fairweather]

Even the act of saving it has some societal value--unless he's just stuffin' it in a mattress or something.

 

Or in an offshore account.

[Peter_Puget]

i also know that rich folks are just as likely to park their huge fortunes in savings for generations on end

 

Ivan what do oyu mean by this and why is it important?

[Fairweather]

I like trickle-down economics better than trickle-up poverty.

[ivan]

i also know that rich folks are just as likely to park their huge fortunes in savings for generations on end

 

Ivan what do oyu mean by this and why is it important?

i'd be quick to point out again i had shit grades in econ, and only 2 classes in it at that - i did actually like macro-economics, which this thread seems to concern more at the moment?

 

my primitive understanding is, for folks to be happy in our economy, that money must keep pumping around, not unlike blood through a body, and that when money collects in the hands of a few, it tends to get put into various forms of savings, many of which won't have the effect of pumping the money back into the lowerclasses hands, and can even have the lovely effect of fueling speculation bubbles that bust the overall economy, causing disproportional suffering to the poor

[ivan]

I like trickle-down economics better than trickle-up poverty.

there's a surprise

 

at any rate, as i said a few posts back - that is the basic philosophic difference that stands at the root of the debate, and upon which there's little room for compromise.

[Kimmo]

Even the act of saving it has some societal value--unless he's just stuffin' it in a mattress or something.

 

Or in an offshore account.

 

heh, nothing like a hedge fund pumping up the price of commodities to help out the lower classes lols.

[Kimmo]

"here sir, here are some more tax breaks so you can help us common-folk with larger private equity fund investments LOL.

 

ahh the naivetee of the middle-class republican.

[Kimmo]

"But it's all about fairness! "

[JayB]

i also know that rich folks are just as likely to park their huge fortunes in savings for generations on end

 

Ivan what do oyu mean by this and why is it important?

i'd be quick to point out again i had shit grades in econ, and only 2 classes in it at that - i did actually like macro-economics, which this thread seems to concern more at the moment?

 

my primitive understanding is, for folks to be happy in our economy, that money must keep pumping around, not unlike blood through a body, and that when money collects in the hands of a few, it tends to get put into various forms of savings, many of which won't have the effect of pumping the money back into the lowerclasses hands, and can even have the lovely effect of fueling speculation bubbles that bust the overall economy, causing disproportional suffering to the poor

 

If you are for redistribution - income indexed transfer payments are a much more efficient, and less economically destructive means of doing so than systematically distorting the cost of government/delivering public services through politically determined wage and benefit schemes that only benefit people directly employed by the government.

 

Make government as efficient as possible and you'll have more resources for the state to redistribute to the people who really need it - not less.

 

 

[Kimmo]

Are you saying that paying only what's necessary to staff a state job with a consenting adult who's qualified to do the job is the moral equivalent of child labor???

 

we are all children in the eyes of god.

[JayB]

"here sir, here are some more tax breaks so you can help us common-folk with larger private equity fund investments LOL.

 

ahh the naivetee of the middle-class republican.

 

How is overpaying ferry workers by millions of dollars per year beneficial to the common folk? Particularly in an environment where the said millions could be used to fund public defenders, social services, etc, etc, etc?

 

http://www.king5.com/news/local/Investigators-10-million-spent-on-extras-for-group-of-state-employees-97113379.html

[Kimmo]

While I agree that no one is worth what the CEO of Verizon gets - he isn't getting paid with my tax dollars.

 

i would argue that we all contribute to ceo pay packages, as surely as we contribute to the terribly overpaid ticket taker's pay package, through things like cost of services, inflationary pressures, lack of equitable taxation etc etc and many other externalities (ie percentaqge of income spent on necessities).

[Kimmo]

"here sir, here are some more tax breaks so you can help us common-folk with larger private equity fund investments LOL.

 

ahh the naivetee of the middle-class republican.

 

How is overpaying ferry workers by millions of dollars per year beneficial to the common folk? Particularly in an environment where the said millions could be used to fund public defenders, social services, etc, etc, etc?

 

http://www.king5.com/news/local/Investigators-10-million-spent-on-extras-for-group-of-state-employees-97113379.html

 

look at my quote box above. your question is a non-sequiter.

[JayB]

How does responsible economics on the state site translate into opression in your view?

 

Don't get me wrong, the shit is hitting the fan big time. But the crisis is not limited to the current fiscal constraints on states and municipalities. As the original Mish piece makes clear (not that there aren't problems with it) the crisis is global and systemic. Any argument that doesn't address this fact doesn't pass a sniff test any more than Peter and Jay's newfound concern for food stamps and healthcare. At the risk of "getting all meta", ferry ticket takers and Metro bus drivers are only indicative of a larger questions that's facing the post-industrial world as a whole about what the hell we're going to do with all our people and what kind of society do we want to live in. There have developed serious contradictions between achieving maximum utility and efficiency in the economic realm and meeting the demands people have for living with a modicum of security, compensation, and hope for their future. Whether those people work for the government or not is irrelevant. Some appeal to the "private sector" as a model for how things should be run but one only need look at how the American worker has actually fared there to see that it's failing dramatically to meet those criteria. Is $16-$20 an hour unreasonable in this day and age? How is making more people redundant or reducing their purchasing power in the context of (permanent?) structural unemployment going to improve the outlook? How is is it likely to rebound on the political landscape? In the current anti-tax climate, is there really likely to be an improvement in service delivery (or god forbid an increase) corresponding to government worker layoffs and wage and benefit reductions? We certainly know there will be a corresponding increase in demand for those services in the event.

 

 

That vague thumping sound you hear in the background is this guy's head slamming against the inside of his casket.

 

 

[Jim]

While I agree that no one is worth what the CEO of Verizon gets - he isn't getting paid with my tax dollars.

 

i would argue that we all contribute to ceo pay packages, as surely as we contribute to the terribly overpaid ticket taker's pay package, through things like cost of services, inflationary pressures, lack of equitable taxation etc etc and many other externalities (ie percentaqge of income spent on necessities).

 

Not a good analogy. I don't use Verizon. I have no choice in paying taxes.

[prole]

How is overpaying ferry workers by millions of dollars per year beneficial to the common folk? Particularly in an environment where the said millions could be used to fund public defenders, social services, etc, etc, etc?

 

There is no reason to think that layoffs and wage and benefit cuts would necessarily lead to the continuation, much less the expansion, of social services. This is particularly so since the most vocal advocates for busting public sector unions are also opposed to the public provision of social services. At least Fairweather has the intellectual honesty not to go here.