Taxes[Wall of grammatically incorrect text]

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

Coming from a teabagger, no less!

 

You wish I would teabag you, sicko.

[prole]

You probably couldn't due to all the steroids you've taken.

[tvashtarkatena]

KKK's where I get all my one liners. That shit is garden fresh.

[tvashtarkatena]

Ain't no governing it. BURBIAN BADDASS.

[tvashtarkatena]

Fuckin chopped Lawnboy n shit.

[murraysovereign]

In any case, I am sure loopholes will be created for the rich, such as making their "Death Star" SUV purchase through their business and getting a tax refund that way. I believe this is the case in BC for the HST - businesses do not pay HST on "business inputs". Perhaps someone who know more about the HST rules can comment.

 

True - businesses claim back the sales taxes they pay on purchases made for business purposes. People like to wave that one around and complain that businesses aren't paying taxes. I've got news for you - businesses don't pay taxes. Never have, never will. Their customers pay those taxes. Businesses pass on the cost of their taxes to their customers in the form of higher prices, just like any other business expense. Higher wage cost = higher prices. Higher materials costs = higher prices. Higher rent = higher prices. Higher taxes = yep, higher prices. Sure, businesses remit a lot of taxes to the government, but they ultimately get that money from the customer - you. Just because there's no separate line item on the receipt telling you exactly how much tax has been blended into the price of the goods or services you bought, doesn't mean you're not paying it.

 

I'm not arguing that this is right, or wrong. It just is.

 

As for "loopholes" - have you looked at the income tax codes lately? The wealthy are able to dodge a Hell of a lot more income tax than sales tax.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

In any case, I am sure loopholes will be created for the rich, such as making their "Death Star" SUV purchase through their business and getting a tax refund that way. I believe this is the case in BC for the HST - businesses do not pay HST on "business inputs". Perhaps someone who know more about the HST rules can comment.

 

True - businesses claim back the sales taxes they pay on purchases made for business purposes. People like to wave that one around and complain that businesses aren't paying taxes. I've got news for you - businesses don't pay taxes. Never have, never will. Their customers pay those taxes. Businesses pass on the cost of their taxes to their customers in the form of higher prices, just like any other business expense. Higher wage cost = higher prices. Higher materials costs = higher prices. Higher rent = higher prices. Higher taxes = yep, higher prices. Sure, businesses remit a lot of taxes to the government, but they ultimately get that money from the customer - you. Just because there's no separate line item on the receipt telling you exactly how much tax has been blended into the price of the goods or services you bought, doesn't mean you're not paying it.

 

I'm not arguing that this is right, or wrong. It just is.

 

As for "loopholes" - have you looked at the income tax codes lately? The wealthy are able to dodge a Hell of a lot more income tax than sales tax.

 

Yeah, but businesses are "bad" and run by greedy, rich assholes! Tax the businesses! Make them cough up!

[murraysovereign]

The $4.40 in sales tax paid by a "poor folk" for shoes at Walmart could feed their kid that night. The $110 sales tax on a used car is a week's worth of groceries or a quarter of a month's rent. The money is worth more when you don't have much of it. It's why sales taxes and flat taxes are considered "regressive".

 

Ummm.... you read the part about rebating the sales taxes back to people at the lower end of the income scale, didn't you? You understood that would mean they don't actually pay the sales tax, didn't you? In fact, that would mean that the wealthy would be paying those sales taxes for them. You got a problem with the wealthy paying taxes on behalf of the poor?

[prole]

So do they pay sales tax at the register or not? Don't dick around with a rebate, "put money in people's pockets". As far as the rich paying taxes "on behalf" of the poor, Off had it right: the rich are the prime beneficiaries of the social arrangements that made them that way. They should be paying and more.

[prole]

Yeah, but businesses are "bad" and run by greedy, rich assholes! Tax the businesses! Make them cough up!

 

Given the more or less permanent condition of "'roid rage" you display here, your balls (if they can still be described as such) must be the size of wasabi peas.

[Fairweather]

Off had it right: the rich are the prime beneficiaries of the public employee unions and their bought representatives that made them that way.

 

 

[prole]

Whatever. Go tell it to the Irish.

[Fairweather]

As far as the rich paying taxes "on behalf" of the poor, Off had it right: the private sector rich are the prime beneficiaries of the social arrangements that made them that way. They should be paying and more.

 

Or we could let them spend their money and generate the jobs that provide human dignity. But you're right; most rich folks probably just stuff ill-gotten wads of cash into the folds of their mattresses every night.

[prole]

TAKE A LOOK AROUND, YOU DUMB CLUCK. IT DIDN'T WORK, REAGAN LOST. HAYEK LOST. GAME OVER. TIME TO PUT YOUR THINKING CAP BACK ON.

[prole]

Oh, and you talking about human dignity is like Ted Bundy teaching a class on feminism. It's weak.

[tvashtarkatena]

"I'm Pro Torture, Pro Dignity, and I Vote...for Bob Barr."

Edited November 23, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[jon]

In any case, I am sure loopholes will be created for the rich, such as making their "Death Star" SUV purchase through their business and getting a tax refund that way. I believe this is the case in BC for the HST - businesses do not pay HST on "business inputs". Perhaps someone who know more about the HST rules can comment.

 

True - businesses claim back the sales taxes they pay on purchases made for business purposes. People like to wave that one around and complain that businesses aren't paying taxes. I've got news for you - businesses don't pay taxes. Never have, never will. Their customers pay those taxes. Businesses pass on the cost of their taxes to their customers in the form of higher prices, just like any other business expense. Higher wage cost = higher prices. Higher materials costs = higher prices. Higher rent = higher prices. Higher taxes = yep, higher prices. Sure, businesses remit a lot of taxes to the government, but they ultimately get that money from the customer - you. Just because there's no separate line item on the receipt telling you exactly how much tax has been blended into the price of the goods or services you bought, doesn't mean you're not paying it.

 

I'm not arguing that this is right, or wrong. It just is.

 

As for "loopholes" - have you looked at the income tax codes lately? The wealthy are able to dodge a Hell of a lot more income tax than sales tax.

 

I thought the business were exempt from HST for any inputs related to the production of a consumer good? Am I wrong?

 

Murray I'm not meaning to put you on the spot here but I have a couple questions.

 

1. Did the HST hurt your business or not? For those here not familiar with the HST it is a 12% sales tax on virtually everything. I see an increasing number of BC plates in Bellingham/I5, and I don't think they are there because WA is purdy.

 

2. Why are consumer goods so much more expensive in Canada? Is part of it due to import taxes? Or is it that Canadians are less willing to work for cheap then Americans? I raise this issue because I think the same thing needs to happen in the US so that we become less dependent on goods from countries outside NA.

[Fairweather]

TAKE A LOOK AROUND, YOU DUMB CLUCK. IT DIDN'T WORK, REAGAN LOST. HAYEK LOST. GAME OVER. TIME TO PUT YOUR THINKING CAP BACK ON.

 

Feel free to line up for your government rump-pump, but I'll take my chances with the private sector. The change you and doofus want, well, you're just gonna have to fight us for it. Maybe Matt will issue you a commission in his army and let you shine his boots.

[JayB]

I don't know. I hear a proposal to do away with income tax. They said a national sales tax, 22% on everything, was the way to go. I'm like: what kind of fucked up rich dude thinking is that bullshit? Rich dude miser gets to pay the same as a poor person. In fact, as a percentage, the poor folks will be taking it in the ass. They still need to buy shoes, buy clothes, the same appliances except the percentage they pay will be huge.

 

This is a common concern regarding consumption taxes of all kinds, and it appears legit on the face of it. But think about it: when "poor folks" buy shoes, they're getting them at WalMart for $20, VAT @ 22% = $4.40; when "the rich" buy shoes, they're buying ManoloBlablablas for $400, $500, $600 and more per pair. VAT @ 22% on $500 shoes = $110. When "poor folks" buy cars, they're buying 2nd- or 3rd-hand used cars for $500, VAT = $110; when "the rich" buy cars, they're buying Porsches or Jags or Caddies, or vintage collector cars, or monster "Death Star" SUV things, VAT @ 22% on a $100,000 vehicle comes to $22,000. Tell me again who's paying more?

 

Also, there are ways of softening the blow for those at the lower end of the income scale. Our HST structure includes rebates for those at the lowest income levels, meaning they effectively pay no sales tax at all. It's a sliding scale, so as your income increases your rebate is reduced, until one day you find that the rebates aren't coming anymore. By that time you're making enough that the sales tax is affordable. Hell, I feel like I'm doing OK personally, but somehow I still qualify for small rebates that are deposited directly into my bank account quarterly.

 

In general, I prefer consumption taxes over income taxes any day. Taxes are a disincentive - want people to smoke less, raise tobacco taxes. Want people to drink less, raise alcohol taxes. Want people to work harder, save more money, invest more - reduce their income taxes, and recoup that revenue with consumption taxes. In other words, go ahead and penalize me for spending my money, but don't penalize me for earning it.

 

You want all those jobs to stop migrating to China? Right now you're taxing the earnings of all US-based companies, and all their employees. Those companies have to pay their employees more, simply because a chunk of their pay disappears before they even see it. In order to stretch what's left, they then spend their take-home pay on products made in China by companies that don't have to pay those income taxes. What if those products could be built in the US again, by companies and individuals that don't see their earnings being taxed at the source? By replacing income taxes with a VAT, you ensure that those Chinese imports are being taxed at the same rate as domestic products. The Chinese will still enjoy some degree of advantage due to their colossal labour supply, but at least you won't be deliberately building that advantage into your economy via your taxation policies.

 

As long as it's designed with adequate protection for the lowest income-earners by way of rebates or something of that sort, I'm all for it.

 

Cue JayB in 3... 2... 1...

 

 

I'm with you on consumption taxes. They're far superior to income taxes is your goal is to promote savings, investment, and production (e.g. the things that promote long-term economic growth).

 

You can even make them more politically palatable by making them small-P progressive. Under that regime you report your income, you report your total savings for the year, and you're taxed on the differential between the two. Very easy to engineer the tax structure so that the tax rate on the poorest is actually negative.

 

Somewhere along the line Canada actually saw the light with regards to taxes - somewhere in the mega-reforms in the mid-90s, I'd guess - and now actually outranks the US in the index of economic freedom for the first time ever. Hopefully the current malaise will cause more than a few people to look at how the folks in Canada, NZ, and Australia structure their taxes and learn a thing or two. Not optimistic about that but it's nice to know there are examples to learn from if anyone is willing to do so.

 

My only concern for Canada at the moment lies in the transfer of mortgage risk from the private banks to the public via the CHMC, and I continue to be extremely alarmed by the valuations, instruments like 40-year, 100% mortgages, and the total volume of mortgage debt that's bound to reset at a higher rate. I hope for Canada's sake I'm wrong about that but all of the metrics are quite worrisome. I don't feel any better when I peruse sites like these:

 

http://www.crackshackormansion.com/

 

http://www.greaterfool.ca/

 

 

[Hugh Conway]

2. Why are consumer goods so much more expensive in Canada? Is part of it due to import taxes? Or is it that Canadians are less willing to work for cheap then Americans? I raise this issue because I think the same thing needs to happen in the US so that we become less dependent on goods from countries outside NA.

 

My understanding was, for a number of consumer goods like books and cars, it was simply market size. Fewer people than California in a country bigger than the lower 48

[Nitrox]

Bite leather, Porky.

 

[murraysovereign]

I thought the business were exempt from HST for any inputs related to the production of a consumer good? Am I wrong?

 

That's an abbreviated version, essentially correct except it goes further than just production of goods. Anything a business purchases for business purposes, be it goods or services, is taxed, and the business pays the full HST. When that purchase is recorded, the amount of HST paid is posted on the books as a credit, basically an account receivable. When the business sells its goods or services, it collects HST from the customer, and that HST is posted on the books as an account payable. At the end of each reporting period - monthly or quarterly, usually - the two amounts are added together, and the business either remits the HST payable, or files for a credit if they paid out more tax than they collected.

 

1. Did the HST hurt your business or not? For those here not familiar with the HST it is a 12% sales tax on virtually everything. I see an increasing number of BC plates in Bellingham/I5, and I don't think they are there because WA is purdy.

 

It's helped my business. Virtually everything we sell already had both provincial sales tax (7%) and GST (5%) applied to it, for a total of 12%. All we did was change the name to HST, so there's been virtually no change to the amount my customer pays at the till. So we haven`t seen the drop in sales that, for instance, restaurants have experienced due to having to charge the additional 7%. But in terms of my business finances, I can now claim back the former PST that formerly I had to absorb. For instance, one of my front desk computers crapped out this summer. Under the previous tax regime when I replaced that computer I would have claimed back the 5% GST, but would have had to absorb the 7% PST. But under the HST I was able to claim back the full amount. So a small part of my operating costs has been reduced - nothing huge, but there`s a quantifiable net benefit.

 

2. Why are consumer goods so much more expensive in Canada? Is part of it due to import taxes? Or is it that Canadians are less willing to work for cheap then Americans? I raise this issue because I think the same thing needs to happen in the US so that we become less dependent on goods from countries outside NA.

 

Hooo boy, that`s a large question, with lots and lots of little answers. Certainly part of it is due to import duties, and while that`s the easiest cause to identify, there are plenty of others.

 

Another reason is that Canada is a much smaller market than the US. The cost of building, stocking and running a distribution centre in Canada is about the same as building one in the US, but you`ve got something like 1/12 the market to spread those costs over. I recall a few years ago the North Face rep told me they sold as many down jackets on the island of Manhattan as in all of Canada. While that may have been an exaggeration it`s probably not too far off. The economies of scale that can be realized in a much larger, much denser population are significant.

 

Some companies find it`s simply not worth the added cost of maintaining separate distribution, so they serve the Canadian market through their US warehouse - as is the case with LaSportiva. That means that every order of boots I bring in from LaSportiva is shipped from Colorado. In order to get those boots into the US, LaSportiva USA had to pay US import duties on them, which gets factored into their wholesale price (see the earlier discussion about businesses merely passing taxes on to the customer). The wholesale price I pay is the same as the wholesale price paid by a US-based retailer. But then those boots get loaded onto a truck and shipped to Canada. First of all that gets billed as international shipping, which is more expensive than domestic shipping. Then those boots hit the border, and I have to pay a brokerage firm to process all the paperwork to clear the boots across the border (ie, calculate the duty owing, pay it up front, and invoice me for it in turn, plus a fee-for-service based on a percentage of the value of the shipment). So in the end, even though LaSportiva charges me and the US retailer the same amount for those boots, by the time I receive them they`ve cost me about 21-22% more (18% duty, plus brokerage fees, plus international shipping costs).

 

Another problem arises from currency exchange. Black Diamond is a good example - they bill me in Canadian dollars, but they`ve arrived at their Canadian price list by taking their US prices and applying an exchange rate that they`re comfortable with. Last year they set it at 15%, whereas the actual exchange rate ended up being in the 4% to 6% range, so every Camalot I bought cost me several dollars more than it would have if I`d been a US retailer.

 

That`s a start...

[Lucky Larry]

RE: go be fat somewhere else porky. bejeezes, now dats wat ei kal uber-spray. fortunately, no animals were harmed while sharing this sadistic POS. it's only funny/odd/strange in why does it make people laugh--why? feed splash back spray please. I thought I was immune to laughing at peoples inhumanity to man. is it just that it is so fucking appalling stupid, or an underlying subconscious desire/want to hurt people. I'm a grand-pappy for beans sake.

Edited November 23, 2010 by oldlarry

[KaskadskyjKozak]

TAKE A LOOK AROUND, YOU DUMB CLUCK. IT DIDN'T WORK, REAGAN LOST. HAYEK LOST. GAME OVER. TIME TO PUT YOUR THINKING CAP BACK ON.

 

Gee, and he was talking about "roid rage". :lmao"

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Yeah, but businesses are "bad" and run by greedy, rich assholes! Tax the businesses! Make them cough up!

 

Given the more or less permanent condition of "'roid rage" you display here, your balls (if they can still be described as such) must be the size of wasabi peas.

 

Umm, yeah.