Trash

[summitchaserCJB]

that's right sucka...there's teenagers (and preteens) hiking the hardest stuff around...

Yeah, hard to beat the strength to weight ratio, the challenge is of course, to still hike that shit after puberty and adolescence. Have seen that turn more than couple of hikers into wrestlers until they either bailed or put in the work to recover as young adults.

 

I hope you're wrong.

A drive up Boulder Canyon says it's just getting warmed up. And hell, U.S. via ferratas are only just birthing but no doubt will be starting to branch out in the coming years (can you say Infinite Iron...). They both appeal to a demanding, risk-averse demographic that will not be denied in the coming decades. Can't wait for the day sportos are bitching about via ferrati.

 

dude, of course he's wrong. most of what joseph posts here is "trash".

Except it all keeps coming true, or at least it has consistently for the past three decades. I don't expect the next two to be any different.

Perception is reality...

Post-modern garbage detected.

[denalidave]

FREE SOLO OR NOTHING, that's the way is should be. THIS F'ING SPORT HAS BEEN SO DUMBDEDED DOWN, IF YOU FALL YOU SHOULD DIE. THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO PRESERVE OUR HERITAGE, AND KEEP THIS ELITE ACTIVITY FOR ONLY THE MOST DESERVING, COURAGEOUS AND GIFTED ATHLEETS. NOT TO MENTION OUR ENVIRONMENT... SURE WOULD KEEP THE LEARNING CURVE TO THE LEASTESTEST DUMBDEDED DOWN. ROPES ARE FOR SISSIES!!!

[Water]

how many of you are drinking this evening and how much have you had so far?

[denalidave]

how many of you are drinking this evening and how much have you had so far?

I'm so thirsty for YOU, WATER, YOU!...

 

[denalidave]

how many of you are drinking this evening and how much have you had so far?

I'm so thirsty for YOU, WATER, YOU!...

Hick-up!

[Water]

 

you know what i find to be trash? orange peels next to the trail. absolutely ruins my wilderness experience. i once quit a 17 day vacation on day 3 in lake clark national park because i saw an orange peel.

 

 

[denalidave]

[denalidave]

 

you know what i find to be trash? orange peels next to the trail. absolutely ruins my wilderness experience. i once quit a 17 day vacation on day 3 in lake clark national park because i saw an orange peel.

 

Just eat em.

[denalidave]

 

you know what i find to be trash? orange peels next to the trail. absolutely ruins my wilderness experience. i once quit a 17 day vacation on day 3 in lake clark national park because i saw an orange peel.

 

Just eat em.

That's what we did back in the last century (I know, most of ya'll were still suck'n mum's breast back then) but we could not afford to waste any calories cause we had to carry a rack made of real iron and just get'n to the crag usually took a week or so, going up hill in 3 feet of snow...

[Water]

but.. my... precious wilderness experience. also, when i'm on a listed/mapped trail through a wilderness area, sometimes I want to blow my brains out cause i know it was made by humans. also if I see a jet or contrail above a wilderness area... ooooo that gets me seething

[Raindawg]

Most of you folks...including "El Jefe", "RuMR, "Drederek" etc.(kevbone is in his own special category) seem to prefer to attack the messengers (including "Raindawg" and Joseph H.) rather than addressing the message. How about discussing the original topic: "trash" on the crags?

Any of you care to discuss how unrestrained sport-bolting jives with a leave-little/no-trace ethic subscribed by most every other outdoor sport? The Jungian attack was especially weak, as if to "prove" that if one adamantly subscribes to a particular position apart than the majority,then one is psychologically disfuncational...typical Jungian flakiness. (continue your studies and intellectual growth and check back in a few years and see if you still believe that nonsense).

 

Many of you seem to think that the end (climbing some "high-end" difficult routes, usually after repeated rehearsals - which speaks for itself) somehow justifies the means...unrestrained bolting. Extremely immature and selfish, I'd say!

[denalidave]

On the contrary Dawg... You, among the other usual suspects, espouse this altruistic "ethic", which is always out of reach of the "ordinary" climber. I really don't believe the climbing community is for grid bolting every piece of rock in the world. Yes, bolts should be limited, and only when gear cannot be had, and also only when it will have the least "permanent" impact on the "wilderness". I'm just curious if you, Dawg, have ever, in your climbing career, clipped a bolt? If so, why was that/those bolt(s) acceptable, when the rest are trash? Where does Dawg draw the line?

 

Serious inquiry. Inquiring minds want to know.

[summitchaserCJB]

how many of you are drinking this evening and how much have you had so far?

I'm on the second PBR . 16 ounces of love . Edited November 7, 2010 by summitchaserCJB

[summitchaserCJB]

Most of you folks...including "El Jefe", "RuMR, "Drederek" etc.(kevbone is in his own special category) seem to prefer to attack the messengers (including "Raindawg" and Joseph H.) rather than addressing the message. How about discussing the original topic: "trash" on the crags?

Any of you care to discuss how unrestrained sport-bolting jives with a leave-little/no-trace ethic subscribed by most every other outdoor sport? The Jungian attack was especially weak, as if to "prove" that if one adamantly subscribes to a particular position apart than the majority,then one is psychologically disfuncational...typical Jungian flakiness. (continue your studies and intellectual growth and check back in a few years and see if you still believe that nonsense).

 

Many of you seem to think that the end (climbing some "high-end" difficult routes, usually after repeated rehearsals - which speaks for itself) somehow justifies the means...unrestrained bolting. Extremely immature and selfish, I'd say!

True enough. One of my profs liked to stress the idea that there is no "normal" but rather only a "typical" person represented in psychology. Because the norm is based on a statistic and because what the majority does isn't necessarily good (think Nazi Germany or McDonalds.) Kind of thought provoking considering our choice of activity.

When you think in terms of typical rather than normal you are a bit releaved- the burden of statistical determinism is released and you are free to roam about the country.

For some reason his concept made a lot more sense then than it does right at this moment. I'd like to think that my experience in the "human experiment" as it is had enlightened me to the point where I no longer am certain of my certainty, a sort of nod to Decartes, the egotistical bastard! But really what is true is that the real life experience is much less clear than the crisp words read off of the textbook. Which is better? We probably won't ever know. But something deep inside keeps pushing, pulling and nudging each to seek his own piece of the pie as it were.

But we are egotistical, humans / Aren't we? We only know reality from a first-person perspective, so who could blame us? I mean damn. Are we not free agents?

As I settled down with thought I brought myself to natural conclusions that were neat and clean. Free of debries. I was happy, so I told myself. Then I resolved to begin it all against tomorrow- but I knew it was a lie.

I have no internal monologue.

Edited November 7, 2010 by summitchaserCJB

[Rafe1234]

Social conservatism is trash. Sport in America is not encroaching on gear routes. I've seen nearly zero evidence of this throughout US crags.

 

Categorizing people who set sport routes as "they", as if they only sport climb and have no regard for anything but sandwiched, overbolted sport routes is nonsense and simplistic.

 

Sport climbing and bouldering are lots of fun, and the enthusiasm and strength shown in the progressing generation of climbers is great.

 

I'd say the anti-sport/boulderer camp cares more about their ego's than bolts or chains or draws or pins or slings on a route.

[Drederek]

It seems trash is in the eye of the beholder. My perception of trash and the ways I cope with it change. Some days I pick up the bits of trash alongside the trail, somedays I walk on by. If I think a route in the wilderness is overflagged I'll remove some or most of it. I hate braided trails in the desert. If I have to I'll shit in a hole and bury it. I don't believe bolts are trash. I don't like seeing draws hanging off them. I prefer chains at the top of climbs to a wad of slings around a tree but I'll use whatever is there. Getting out into the wilderness and onto the rock is always going to do some damage, I'd like to think I keep it to a level that is sustainable or better.

The opinions of demagogues are indeed trash!

[kukuzka1]

sport climbing is here to stay,[good or bad] if we have designated areas for sport routes and keep the mountains hand drilled only I dont think we would have a problem and have a happy medium.

[denalidave]

On the contrary Dawg... You, among the other usual suspects, espouse this altruistic "ethic", which is always out of reach of the "ordinary" climber. I really don't believe the climbing community is for grid bolting every piece of rock in the world. Yes, bolts should be limited, and only when gear cannot be had, and also only when it will have the least "permanent" impact on the "wilderness". I'm just curious if you, Dawg, have ever, in your climbing career, clipped a bolt? If so, why was that/those bolt(s) acceptable, when the rest are trash? Where does Dawg draw the line?

 

Serious inquiry. Inquiring minds want to know.

Well?

 

At least throw me a Scare Bear if your too scared to answer a simple question, Dawg... Maybe he is just off pioneering a new ultimate alpine route and far to busy to waste time talkin trash?

[denalidave]

Many of you seem to think that the end (climbing some "high-end" difficult routes, usually after repeated rehearsals - which speaks for itself) somehow justifies the means...unrestrained bolting. Extremely immature and selfish, I'd say!

Yes, so true... Training, or repeating/practicing is the root of all evil and there is no way one could improve overall climbing skills with this horrid tactic. We should not practice in any other arena or discipline in life either... When we send soldiers off to fight in a war, practicing over and over back at base camp is cheating and only dumbening down the soldiers to the lowest common denominator. We will only be hard, when everything in life is onsite, unrehearsed and fraught with danger.

[denalidave]

WHO LET THE DAWG OUT??? RUFFFFF!

[Raindawg]

WHO LET THE DAWG OUT??? RUFFFFF!

 

Seeking attention today? I'm actually off to the wet mountains....late...for some exercise, so I'm going to keep this short for now. As repeated numerous times here:

 

1) From my perspective, I advocate "clean climbing" which is the practice of leaving as little trace as possible of your passing. I don't know how old you are so I don't know if you were even around or interested when that concept took off. A version of this is practiced today by probably every outdoor with an exception being sport-climbing. Bolts should be FEW and a last resort and each one should require ethical contemplation as to its impact. From my perspective, lines composed solely of closely-spaced bolts are irresponsible. I think it's better to leave the rock alone then to "create" such a "route". Do you think I'm the only one who thinks this way? Why are their bolt and power-drill restrictions in Joshua Tree and many other places?

 

Have I ever clipped a bolt (cue the childish smokescreen ad hominem attack). Who hasn't? But they are perhaps best justified as fixed belay/rappel/top-rope anchors to avoid an accumulation of even more garbage. And as a rare publicly accountable last resort.

Do I climb sport climbs? (routes solely composed of closely spaced bolts) No. I don't. I boycott them for the reasons described above and encourage others to likewise do so.

Is sport-climbing fun? No doubt! Convenient (and profitable!) in so many different ways. Driving a dirt-bike around the Wonderland Trail would be fun too...but again there's a principle involved.

 

Another popular comment around here: the "it's all good", "get with it, everyone's doing it", "it's here to stay".....blah, blah, blah.

That's really, really shallow.

 

I thought I'd keep this short but looks like I lost half an hour of outdoor time....so I'm outta here.

 

So, back to an earlier question: would you care to discuss how unrestrained sport-bolting jives with a leave-little/no-trace ethic subscribed by most every other outdoor sport?

 

- "Raindawg"

 

P.S. You clearly didn't understand my point about rehearsal but I have no time for this. Instead, you may enjoy this picture from the Mt. Rainier web-cam c.11:20 AM today:

 

 

[el jefe]

i'm not interested in what you call a "discussion", raindawg, because it won't be a discussion in terms of a give-and-take of ideas but rather an opportunity for you to rant and for me to listen to you rant, and i certainly have better things to do. enjoy wandering around in the fog.

[denalidave]

WHO LET THE DAWG OUT??? RUFFFFF!

 

Seeking attention today? I'm actually off to the wet mountains....late...for some exercise, so I'm going to keep this short for now. As repeated numerous times here:

 

1) From my perspective, I advocate "clean climbing" which is the practice of leaving as little trace as possible of your passing. I don't know how old you are so I don't know if you were even around or interested when that concept took off. A version of this is practiced today by probably every outdoor with an exception being sport-climbing. Bolts should be FEW and a last resort and each one should require ethical contemplation as to its impact. From my perspective, lines composed solely of closely-spaced bolts are irresponsible. I think it's better to leave the rock alone then to "create" such a "route". Do you think I'm the only one who thinks this way? Why are their bolt and power-drill restrictions in Joshua Tree and many other places?

 

Have I ever clipped a bolt (cue the childish smokescreen ad hominem attack). Who hasn't? But they are perhaps best justified as fixed belay/rappel/top-rope anchors to avoid an accumulation of even more garbage. And as a rare publicly accountable last resort.

Do I climb sport climbs? (routes solely composed of closely spaced bolts) No. I don't. I boycott them for the reasons described above and encourage others to likewise do so.

Is sport-climbing fun? No doubt! Convenient (and profitable!) in so many different ways. Driving a dirt-bike around the Wonderland Trail would be fun too...but again there's a principle involved.

 

Another popular comment around here: the "it's all good", "get with it, everyone's doing it", "it's here to stay".....blah, blah, blah.

That's really, really shallow.

 

I thought I'd keep this short but looks like I lost half an hour of outdoor time....so I'm outta here.

 

So, back to an earlier question: would you care to discuss how unrestrained sport-bolting jives with a leave-little/no-trace ethic subscribed by most every other outdoor sport?

 

- "Raindawg"

 

P.S. You clearly didn't understand my point about rehearsal but I have no time for this. Instead, you may enjoy this picture from the Mt. Rainier web-cam c.11:20 AM today:

 

It took you a half an hour to come up with that? I thought you were a super intellectual type. Have fun in the hills. Be sure to walk all the way there and only eat foods that were provided by nature along the way. Otherwise, you are still part of the problem and leaving a trace in the form of more pollution in our mountains. I'm sure you already considered your eco-footprint while you walk the distance (in 4 ft of snow - both ways)in your home made Moccasins/clothing that you whipped up from bear skin off the bear you killed bare handed . Go hardman, go. We worship your dedication to such a pure style of living. Someday, we will all be so cool, if we can keep up with you. Then again, I'm sure no climber will EVER live up to your rigorous approval standards... You will surely find something that makes even the most trad/old skool climbers less than you and your ideal. This strategy will keep you on the top of the pile and the holiest of the holies. At least in your own mind, anyway.

[denalidave]

WHO LET THE DAWG OUT??? RUFFFFF!

 

 

 

So, back to an earlier question: would you care to discuss how unrestrained sport-bolting jives with a leave-little/no-trace ethic subscribed by most every other outdoor sport?

 

- "Raindawg"

 

Just for the record, I don't support grid bolting and also believe in bolting as a last resort. I place plenty of gear and clip plenty of bolts too. I've seen first hand the problem of over-bolting and routes put up in places MOST of the climbing community would not endorse. This does not in itself make sport climbing evil. It is always on a case by case basis. (IMO). Wasting my a time beating a dead horse is fun exercise and should help me on my next proj, dude. Once I heal up and can actually climb again...

 

 

[Kimmo]

ohmygodicantbelieveialmostmissedthisdiscussionimgladicamebytocheckthingsoutandloandbeholdmyfavoritetopicwasplayingatthelittlescreenBUTSERIOUSLY

 

i like dwayner and his perspective. always have. people take his position so amazingly personally, but i've always appreciated it. not only his position, but the extent to which it will goad so many here. ok so maybe it's a little single note, but a single note played sincerely beats multiple notes played ignorantly (or notes i care not to listen to).

 

like native american drumming.