Telecom: another deregulation scam ...

[Hugh Conway]

1) If I couldn't wave a magic wand and immediately fire all unionized ferry employees and replace them, then I'd give the folks who aren't doing any useful work the option of taking unpaid leave or vacation time. Alternatively, I'd allow any unionized ferry workers who wanted to share the pain with their brethren to show their solidarity by donating shifts to them to offset the lost pay. Or they could quit and try their luck in the private sector.

 

Efficient use of taxpayer money > a guaranteed income for ferry workers.

 

2. Yes, and no reason to stop at medicine.

 

Ahh, the regressive chimes in "I got mine, fuck you" as normal

 

Rather pathetic to see someone gleefully wishing Americas competitiveness down the shitter in the name of efficiency; but then your screed against GM earlier (and your rather obvious ignorance of the shape of the American auto market and it's competitors in 1970) shows again religion triumphs fact in 2010 America.

[Hugh Conway]

Hint: Volkswagen, dearly union produced, sales hit an all time North American peak in 1970.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Hint: Volkswagen, dearly union produced, sales hit an all time North American peak in 1970.

 

You buy union-built cars?

[Hugh Conway]

Hint: Volkswagen, dearly union produced, sales hit an all time North American peak in 1970.

 

You buy union-built cars?

 

I don't particularly pay attention; but last I checked Honda and Toyota both had parts made by

the antichrist

err unions as do BMW, Porsche and Mercedes.

 

I'm sure Jay_B will have some babbling sophistry about how this is all because the market was poorly implemented and that if only government had followed the correct interpretation of Rand & Friedman laid out in Das Kapital or whatever everything would be fine.... he's had the same schtick for ~10 years, it doesn't change even when the facts do.

 

 

[Hugh Conway]

OH look.. here's a $4 million subsidy for Bend Broadband:

http://www2.ntia.doc.gov/grantee/bend-cable-communications-llc-bendbroadband

pretty much all of the other ones out there received subsidies as well..... and that's just in telcom.

 

We haven't gotten to the "service economy of the future" where the saps like that radiologist who got us saps to pay for his training, and now gets his $$$$ by an enforced monopoly from his union the AMA. Or the bar, a union if there ever were one.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Hint: Volkswagen, dearly union produced, sales hit an all time North American peak in 1970.

 

You buy union-built cars?

 

I don't particularly pay attention; but last I checked Honda and Toyota both had parts made by

the antichrist

err unions as do BMW, Porsche and Mercedes.

 

 

 

 

You don't pay attention? Guess it's all lip-service then that you (and other libturds) pay to the unions. No surprise there.

 

[billcoe]

OH look.. here's a $4 million subsidy for Bend Broadband:

http://www2.ntia.doc.gov/grantee/bend-cable-communications-llc-bendbroadband

pretty much all of the other ones out there received subsidies as well..... and that's just in telcom.

 

We haven't gotten to the "service economy of the future" where the saps like that radiologist who got us saps to pay for his training, and now gets his $$$$ by an enforced monopoly from his union the AMA. Or the bar, a union if there ever were one.

 

You're making Jaybs point about government intrusion and intervention into the telecom business, and it not having unfettered competition. For myself, I think there are plenty of key industries wherein 100% "free" competition may not be a good idea as we have learned in the past. By most appearances, when government stays totally out of some industries, they wind up less "freemarket" than if the gov't has set up rules of engagement beforehand.

 

We could go on at length on this, but consider a large corp that in the absence of any ogv't oversight could run a natural gas line someplace. They get government help getting easements to run the line. Then once they get the line in and control the market, perhaps even buying the electrical production capability in that area as well: they can set the rates they want had they no oversight. What corp would ever make the massive investment to then go into a head to head competition against an entrenched and deep pocketed established competitor? No one. So there is in fact no free market in this case...and the rates keep going up...and up...and up.

 

Certainly saw some interesting monopolistic practices occur in the past that we could dredge up and discuss in this light.

[tvashtarkatena]

Hint: Volkswagen, dearly union produced, sales hit an all time North American peak in 1970.

 

You buy union-built cars?

 

I don't particularly pay attention; but last I checked Honda and Toyota both had parts made by

the antichrist

err unions as do BMW, Porsche and Mercedes.

 

 

 

 

You don't pay attention? Guess it's all lip-service then that you (and other libturds) pay to the unions. No surprise there.

 

Some people are content sucking corporate cock. Fair enough.

[JayB]

1) If I couldn't wave a magic wand and immediately fire all unionized ferry employees and replace them, then I'd give the folks who aren't doing any useful work the option of taking unpaid leave or vacation time. Alternatively, I'd allow any unionized ferry workers who wanted to share the pain with their brethren to show their solidarity by donating shifts to them to offset the lost pay. Or they could quit and try their luck in the private sector.

 

Efficient use of taxpayer money > a guaranteed income for ferry workers.

 

2. Yes, and no reason to stop at medicine.

 

Ahh, the regressive chimes in "I got mine, fuck you" as normal

 

Rather pathetic to see someone gleefully wishing Americas competitiveness down the shitter in the name of efficiency; but then your screed against GM earlier (and your rather obvious ignorance of the shape of the American auto market and it's competitors in 1970) shows again religion triumphs fact in 2010 America.

 

Better than squandering hundreds of billions of dollars of direct subsidies or foregone consumption or investment propping up grotesquely inefficient private businesses that could only survive by stifling competition.

 

I could care less whether something is made by unionized employees or a the members of a communist vegan yoga commune - as long as no one is forced to buy their stuff or financially penalized for not buying their stuff.

 

The irony here is that its the very fact that their "friends" were able to "protect" the big three from effective competition for so long that rendered them so vulnerable in so many ways once the Japanese managed to get their cars into the market.

 

There has never been anything stopping anyone who is a cheerleader for the Big Three from tangibly supporting by purchasing one of their vehicles. On the west coast, more than anywhere else in the country, that's rare event. In fact, the more someone out here is in favor of protectionism and handouts for GM, etc, the less likely they are to actually own a car made by them.

 

I don't think we disagree on the AMA, etc all that much but are you talking about ending public support for all tertiary education, including subsidized loans, making all student loan interest non-deductible, or just training expenses for MD's, dentists, and attorneys? What about accountants, engineers, etc? Just trying to figure out if this is a general argument against subsidizing all professional training or just for MDs'.

 

 

 

[JayB]

BTW Carl, What is it about the state of affairs that results when the distribution of production and rewards are determined only by people deciding for themselves what to buy, from whom, and at what price that you dislike so intensely?

 

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

You just described Somalia.

[JayB]

Yes - the only things standing between us and our future as the next Somalia are a gaggle of tariffs and the subsidies we slosh on corn ethanol, high fructose corn syrup, and the Davis Bacon act.

 

 

 

 

[Hugh Conway]

I don't think we disagree on the AMA, etc all that much but are you talking about ending public support for all tertiary education, including subsidized loans, making all student loan interest non-deductible, or just training expenses for MD's, dentists, and attorneys? What about accountants, engineers, etc? Just trying to figure out if this is a general argument against subsidizing all professional training or just for MDs'.

 

I've yet to see tax-deductible fly-fishing junkets advertised to engineers. Nor have I ever seen engineers conferences hosted at the Awahnee. The entire bio/medical industrial complex is a triumph of soft living and the power of welfare spending; not a surprise they fight cost discipline so fiercely.

 

BTW Carl, What is it about the state of affairs that results when the distribution of production and rewards are determined only by people deciding for themselves what to buy, from whom, and at what price that you dislike so intensely?

 

BECAUSE IT NEVER OCCURS THAT WAY EVER IN REAL LIFE

 

Hell, Toyota is a prime example of state partnership and heavy subsidies. I struggle to think of any major industry that isn't supported by government subsidies; movement across borders is currently more of a whose willing to subsidize more effort. I'm sure you're a fun of the unsustainable race to the bottom, I'm not.

[tvashtarkatena]

Yeah, Conway's got it about right. For critical services like health care, communications, transportation, police, fire, etc. the free market has not and does not give consumers the MicroEcon 101 fairy tale choices in so alive in Jay's not-so-active-imagination.

 

Our health care costs are clearly spiraling out of control: 2 months after I signed up for one of the cheapest and most highly rated catastrophic HSA plans (personal responsiblity!) my premiums went up 25%. Um...what???

 

Might just have something to do with our doctor's making 2x on average that of any other civilized country (virtually all of which offer better health care, to all, much cheaper), the 12% premium we uniquely pay for private insurance billing/coding/admin clusterfuckedness, and profit motive upselling of expensive procedures that have either a null or negative effect on patient outcomes...all 'free market' driven.

 

The more you read about our health care system, the more you realize that

 

a) The 'die in line' myths about other countries are just that. Far from it: their citizens are laughing at our sorry shitpile of a system.

b) Our public health care systems are excellent...transition would be little problem

c) Our existing system is inherently cruel...not a value conservatives worry about, granted, but some of the rest of us actually give a shit about each other beyond our immediate friends and family.

 

 

[Hugh Conway]

I'm really curious where Jay_B thinks Washington state would be without the welfare that supports the largest employers (U_W, Airport/port, Microsoft, Boeing) against equally, or better, subsidized competitors?

 

If this were some perfect world, sure, the free market would triump. It's not. Only a 10 year old or the ideologically blinded would think that, and really Jay, you're far far better than that. BTW: any excuse that mentions using the state welfare payments of future competitors (Boeing 787) to finance current profits is a retarded strategy... that GM would approve of.

[tvashtarkatena]

Cunty!

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

I just felt like saying that.

[j_b]

No private entity is going to build the infrastructure we need at such a high cost without guarantees. The free-marketeers' solution is sure to lead to sub-par networks and oligopolies. The best hope for high-tech networks and competition in telecoms is publicly owned infrastructure and operator licenses subject to regulation.

 

 

[JayB]

I don't think we disagree on the AMA, etc all that much but are you talking about ending public support for all tertiary education, including subsidized loans, making all student loan interest non-deductible, or just training expenses for MD's, dentists, and attorneys? What about accountants, engineers, etc? Just trying to figure out if this is a general argument against subsidizing all professional training or just for MDs'.

 

I've yet to see tax-deductible fly-fishing junkets advertised to engineers. Nor have I ever seen engineers conferences hosted at the Awahnee. The entire bio/medical industrial complex is a triumph of soft living and the power of welfare spending; not a surprise they fight cost discipline so fiercely.

 

BTW Carl, What is it about the state of affairs that results when the distribution of production and rewards are determined only by people deciding for themselves what to buy, from whom, and at what price that you dislike so intensely?

 

BECAUSE IT NEVER OCCURS THAT WAY EVER IN REAL LIFE

 

Hell, Toyota is a prime example of state partnership and heavy subsidies. I struggle to think of any major industry that isn't supported by government subsidies; movement across borders is currently more of a whose willing to subsidize more effort. I'm sure you're a fun of the unsustainable race to the bottom, I'm not.

 

1. Talk to the folks who control the budgets for buying the stuff that engineers make. Or head to Vegas for an industry convention. My best friend is a sales manager for a lighting controls company, and spends quite a bit of time and the company's money taking people who aren't MD's out to dinner, etc because they control the purse strings.

 

I'm not quite sure what your beef with me is on this point, though, because I'm fairly certain I'd take the liberalization of the entire medical economy far further than you would be prepared to.

 

2. It's clear that the people getting the subsidies are better off than they would be otherwise. That's never been a matter of contention. The question is whether it's a good deal for the people who are having money taken out of their pockets to fund the subsidies.

 

Iowa is clearly vastly better off as a result of the gargantuan agricultural subsidies it gets. It's far from clear that the rest of the country is better off forking over billions of dollars that they could have used for a gazillion other purposes for ethanol and high fructose corn syrup. It's also far from clear that the torrent of subsidized crops spewing onto the global market are a good thing for the rest of the world.

 

The fact that all major industries are subsidized to one degree or another doesn't mean that subsidies are either necessary or beneficial. There are a gazillion sectors of the economy that are either too small or too dynamic to make it worth their while to look for handouts from the government, or for legislators to rig the game in their favor - and the dynamic, specialized patterns of production and exchange that they engage in constitute the vast majority of all economic activity and drive most of the innovation and growth in developed economies.

 

Taking money from businesses that have figured out to sell things for more than they cost to make, and handing it over to companies that can no longer do so is like hooking up an IV from a thousand newborns to a giant, 98 year-old Keith Richards in order to keep his bloated, supperating carcas out of the graveyard for another day. Great for Keith, not so great for the newborns or the society they'll inhabit in the future.

 

GM = 98-year-old Keith Richards. Have a listen:

 

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/403/nummi

[JayB]

Yeah, Conway's got it about right. For critical services like health care, communications, transportation, police, fire, etc. the free market has not and does not give consumers the MicroEcon 101 fairy tale choices in so alive in Jay's not-so-active-imagination.

 

Our health care costs are clearly spiraling out of control: 2 months after I signed up for one of the cheapest and most highly rated catastrophic HSA plans (personal responsiblity!) my premiums went up 25%. Um...what???

 

Might just have something to do with our doctor's making 2x on average that of any other civilized country (virtually all of which offer better health care, to all, much cheaper), the 12% premium we uniquely pay for private insurance billing/coding/admin clusterfuckedness, and profit motive upselling of expensive procedures that have either a null or negative effect on patient outcomes...all 'free market' driven.

 

The more you read about our health care system, the more you realize that

 

a) The 'die in line' myths about other countries are just that. Far from it: their citizens are laughing at our sorry shitpile of a system.

b) Our public health care systems are excellent...transition would be little problem

c) Our existing system is inherently cruel...not a value conservatives worry about, granted, but some of the rest of us actually give a shit about each other beyond our immediate friends and family.

 

 

1. Logical consequence of the health care reform bill that you championed. Dramatically increase coverage without increasing price transparency or competition and...voila. Plenty more where that came from. Budget accordingly.

 

2. Why leave food, clothing, and shelter to the private market? Is high speed internet a more significant human need than food?

 

3. You are confusing things that actually measure clinical efficacy with things that don't. Neither life expectancy nor infant mortality have any meaningful connection with clinical efficacy or value for money when comparing advanced countries. Life expectancy stats are confounded by factors that doctors and hospitals can't do anything about, and international infant mortality stats are rendered meaningless by vastly different standards for what counts as a live birth. A severely underweight premie or a baby that dies for whatever reason within 24 hours or less counts as an infant death in the US, but most other health systems take those as mulligans.

 

The stats that you are relying upon also fail to account for morbidity. You can live to a ripe old age with an untold variety of injuries and illnesses that make your life suck quite a bit more than it would have otherwise, and they'll never register anywhere on an international statistical record.