War

[sexual_chocolate]

CC: What do you think caused the terrorist attacks of 9/11?

Do you think there is any connection to the resentment that so many around the world feel towards the US? And if you do think there is a connection, what do you think causes the resentment in the first place?

[Cpt.Caveman]

quote:

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Originally posted by sexual chocolate:

CC: What do you think caused the terrorist attacks of 9/11?

Do you think there is any connection to the resentment that so many around the world feel towards the US? And if you do think there is a connection, what do you think causes the resentment in the first place?

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I think some sick fucker decided he wanted to blow some shit up The resentment can be caused by many things I suppose..... One of them being trained to think that way from birth.

[sexual_chocolate]

Hey Rodchester, thanks for the reply. If not here, then where, with the same crowd?

My point was, if not articulated clearly, that certainly within the Taliban there are individuals who were trained by the CIA.

"It should also be noted that it was not until recently, 1998, that bin Laden decided to carry the Palastiian cause as his own. You see bin Laden is a wonderful marketing guy. He understands propoganda unlike any other Islamic fundamentalist. He has identified many down troden Islamic cuases and decided to carry their banner, only because it helps his cause."

I don't understand bin Laden, but I think the important point is that he is able to use the Palestinian cause as a rallying cry because it is understood, by any thinking human being, to be a situation where US policy is wrong, plain and simple. If we were to correct our behaviour, then we might have the legs of righteousness(!) to stand on; as it is, we don't, because of our duplicity.

What was the total US financial support of the Mujahedeen? I know that the Saudis et al backed them and provided not only financial support, but also fighters (jihad!); yet wasn't our monetary support in the hundreds of millions, if not billions?

And I agree that much thought has gone into the bombing campaign. I just wonder if it would have been needed if the US played its part in complying and thereby strengthening international law and the power of the world court?

[sexual_chocolate]

Hey CC. Do you think any of the resentment might be justified, or do you think it's all just brainwashing?

[Cpt.Caveman]

quote:

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Originally posted by sexual chocolate:

Hey CC. Do you think any of the resentment might be justified, or do you think it's all just brainwashing?

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I suppose there could be a few cases of justification. That does not let me overlook killing over 4k people including harmless children. What are you gonna say if they kill your entire family in one swoop? Hypothetical question but possible I suppose.

[Bronco]

Sorry to interupt here, but SC, do you think the resentment of the families of the victims of the WTC & Pentagon attacks are Justified? or just conservitive war hawk brainwashing?

[sexual_chocolate]

CC: I wouldn't want to overlook 9/11; no way, no how. I am still incredibly saddened by it, and by the on-going pain of the families involved. And now another plane goes down in the area. Good God.

"I suppose there could be a few cases of justification. That does not let me overlook killing over 4k people including harmless children."

The justifications for their resentment should NOT let you overlook the killing. I don't think justification should let ANYONE overlook killing, but I am so afraid that we are doing exactly that right now in Afghanistan. We think this war is so needed that we are willing to overlook the deaths of civilians JUST AS INNOCENT as the victims of 9/11. And there ARE civilians dying. The deaths simply aren't being reported, because the media seems to think that to report these deaths would somehow be unpatriotic.

So I think this answers your question too, Bronco. Of course their anger and resentment is justified, but I'm also proposing that retaliation based on anger simply is NOT the best response. I think it's easy to lose sight of this, especially when the Taliban just vacated Kabul. This can give the appearance that war works. But to what end? When will the cycle come to an end? I really really do believe we have the capability and insight and intelligence, as human beings, to respond to situations in a non-violent way and, as a result, help create a world that will be SAFER for us and our children.

[Cpt.Caveman]

So we go back and forth.

What do you propose we do? Anger management for terrorists? Swarm them with love and flowers?

[Bronco]

Air drop burning bales of pot into the mountains and get them all stoned

[Bronco]

SC:

I appreciate your well thought out reply, but, you and I are going to disagree on this forever, as I firmly belive there are people in this world who do not respond to or respect anything short of violence. It is their way of life and nothing less than a bullet or bomb will change that. It's a sad fact but I believe it is true. It's also regretable that more inocent people are going to die but, how many more inocent people should we let die in attacks on our country. Or do you not think we are inocent?

[AlpineK]

I bet there's some good pot there. I'm on my way.

Seriously though I think Osama(SP?) is an opportunist and a megalomaniac. He just found a cause that he can get a lot of folks fired up over. I think there is resentment because we always back Israel, and I guess people don't like us basing troops near Meca.

To be fair I think we should be even handed when it comes to Palistine and Israel, but I think as long as our economy is based on oil we are going to have troops near the big oil fields.

So my solution is to be fair with Israel and Palistine, try and work towards an economy that isn't based on oil, help the people of Afghanistan, and bomb the fuck out of Osama's group until every last one of them is dead.

[sexual_chocolate]

"I appreciate your well thought out reply, but, you and I are going to disagree on this forever, as I firmly belive there are people in this world who do not respond to or respect anything short of violence."

There are people in this world who have never known anything but violence. And as a result, they have come to see violence as a necessary means to an end. Our nation is guilty of promoting this idea. There are areas of the world where our only input has been violence. Violence begets violence. Jesus taught this. The Buddha taught this. Gandhi taught this. If we don't show the world that there is a better way than violence, then who will?

I firmly believe that we, as the worlds only super-power, have a huge responsibility in showing to the world the principles that this nation was built on; namely, fairness and opportunity for everyone, equality and justice, an appreciation for the sanctity of human life, freedom for all. I think so far we've strayed from internationalizing these ideals because it's served our short-sighted goals to do so. Heck, 5% of the world's population consuming 40% of it's resources?

I think the quicker we can rectify these injustices, the quicker we will approach a world that will be safer for us AND our children.

[Cpt.Caveman]

So what is your fix bro. Let them bomb us and then reply by saying I am sorry we made you mad by existing? What can we do Osama to make you happy? I don't think he will be happy until America has fallen. Get it yet! Until your ass is 6 feet deep.

[Bronco]

quote:

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Originally posted by sexual chocolate:

I think the quicker we can rectify these injustices, the quicker we will approach a world that will be safer for us AND our children.

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Are you running for office or sumthin? The communist party hasen't done well in these parts near as I can tell.

I can just picture George W running up to Osama Bin terorizin' for a post therapy hug and the Taliban all dies laughin their asses off. I guess that would accomplish the goal.

[AlpineK]

I think if we just sat back and said sorry you don't like us, people like Osama would just take that as encouragement to do something else nasty.

The US has done that plenty in the recent past. Look at the marines in Beruit. What was it..200 of our guys killed and all we did was pack up and go home. Since then terrorism targeted against the US has only got worse. I don't think we really have a choise but to kill Osama.

[haireball]

war does not bring peace or security. I believe it could reasonably be argued that after two "world wars" (wars to end war) peace is still not well-established in Europe. true, a few privileged nations like Britain and France enjoy a rough semblance of peace, but just barely...

yet examples exist of effective change driven by non-violent means: Nelson Mandela and Mohandas Ghandi were two very strong men who gave their lives for their beliefs and their countries, and inspired lasting changes.

the most we can accomplish in Afghanistan with military action is to create a high-altitude cemetery.

on the other hand, anyone who can remember being a child, or who has ever worked with young children knows full well that you don't have to be the more physically powerful opponent in a conflict to prevail. all you have to be is unresponsive to physical force.

although Osama bin Laden may call for death to Americans everywhere, I think even he is not so stupid as to fail to recognize that if he were to actually accomplish this aim, he would simply make himself an easy target for every other petty power-monger on earth for whom the very presence of the U.S. as a world power currently functions as a deterrent to action.

the way the U.S. is pursuing bin Laden is equivalent to attempting to swat a fly with a backhoe. in the end, we will get the fly, having destroyed the house in the process, and the neighborhood will still be full of flies.

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: haireball ]

[MysticNacho]

You can't kill osama, because if you do, you make a martyr out of him. And nobody wants a couple thousand pissed off guys with guns trying to avenge his death. We can't take him alive either, nobody wants those angry guys with guns trying to liberate him. 10 bucks says he "commits suicide." (Maybe with one of our bullets, but we wouldn't know)

[sexual_chocolate]

A large portion of the world's population is voiceless; if we continue to promote this voicelessness, then I truly believe that world stability and peace will continue to evade us; loud and violent voices will necessarily arise, (Read: bin Laden) because people will not suffer voicelessness forever.

Now I guess the question is: How could we respond to the immediate threat facing us? I think part of our response has been correct; a massive intelligence gathering, aimed at uncovering further plots against us and others. This seems to me to be an important component. Another response, and equally important I think, is a reduction in the war- and anger-fueling rhetoric being spewed by our leadership, internationally. It seems as though the rhetoric has been like pouring gas on the fire, and does nothing but further alienate those who already are alienated. bin Laden would have been a small blip on the radar screen if there wasn't the degree of alienation and disenfranchisement that exists in so many Middle-Eastern countries. (I think so, at least. Desperate people resort to desperate means, I think.)

So these, I think, are SOME responses that we have at our disposal in every crisis that we face. I know there are more, but that's all I'll say right now....

[Cpt.Caveman]

You guys have all dodged the real question:

"What is your solution?"

[AlpineK]

Exactly if your pro peace...give us a detailed solution to the problem not some crap about reaching justice.

[sexual_chocolate]

AlpineK, I didn't understand your post. What was it asking, and who was it asking?

[Cpt.Caveman]

I think he is asking what you (or any others that dislike the current plan) option would be to fix the problem giving details.

[Rodchester]

SEX CHOCALATE:

NO such thing as world court and international law. The world court is without an enforcement mechanism, without a legislature to provide laws to enforce, etc etc. International law is the epitome of Darwinistic Capitalism. Seriously.

Your view that we should somehow enforce our beliefs on others just because we can reeks of ethnocentrisity and arrogance. Many of these people just want to be left alone.

And on the Palastinian isse, what are we to do? Do you have a workable solution. If you have ever spent any time with the man on the dirt street (Palastinians) the VAST majority say there is only one way, either we kill all of them or they kill all of us. Now I know the Palastinian leadership and thier maketing teams puts it differently, the man on the dirt street with a rock in his hand does not.

There is no simple simon solution such as waiving a magic US wand that changes our policy, thus changing lives.

To quote a close Palastinian friend. "In the mid east, if a dog farts, we blame it on the CIA. This lets us not accept repsonibility for our own actions."

Lets climb....

[sexual_chocolate]

Solutions? Like I stated earlier, even though it poses problems, intelligence-gathering should continue, but not at the cost of the US constitution. Every effort should be made at uncovering future planned plots, every effort legally available to us. (Under no circumstances should this intelligence-gathering be used as an excuse for harassing legitimate opposition groups.)

Another solution? Every human should make an effort to understand international relations, beginning by reading any and all information available, with HEALTHY skepticism. This means NOT dismissing ideas and opinions simply because we disagree with them, and not blindly agreeing, simply because it sounds like something we're used to believing. I listen to Rush Limbaugh sometimes! And Noam Chomsky, and Edward Said, and CNN, and I visit www.zmag.org . We owe it to ourselves and each other to understand this world we live in; I think so, at least.

Another tactic: Understand our mistakes, and begin to rectify them, and communicate this desire to the Muslim world. Specifically, begin support for democratic reforms in the Muslim world. We have supported unresponsive dictatorships for the sake of oil (Saudi Arabia, among others) or regional influence (Iraq, Pakistan, among others) but unfortunately, this flies in the face of all of our higher principled ideals.

And, yes, a coalitional attempt to bring bin Laden to justice. This does NOT necessitate war. Intelligence-gathering and international pressure, I believe, can bring this about.

And Todd brought up an excellent point about ending our reliance on oil. This is a must, environmentally AND politically.

This is a beginning.

[Cpt.Caveman]

I dont see how you can that undetailed response a solution. There are no goals listed or ways of approaching them realistically.

So you gather intelligence and prevent them. Cool. What about after the fact? Like right now?

It did not look as if there was any cooperation in bringing homey to justice. His ass was never turned over after several requests.

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Cpt.Caveman ]