Best clothing/gear systems for wet weather?

[DanO]

I am just wondering what other guys do for cascades wet

weather situations. Like for if your caught out for

several days in the rain?

 

Primaloft sleeping bags?

 

I know about synthetics and merino wools and so on, but

what works best to get dried out quickly? Wool is warm

wet, but dries slowly.

 

Hard shells may protect from weather for awhile, but after

a few hours you most likely get wet and then it is harder

to dry out than the more breathable shells?

 

I like the idea of the buffalo system, but seems expensive

to me to just try out, of course all high end gear is expensive.

The full on climbing shirt may too warm for most of the season

in the cascades.

 

http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/Products_main.htm

 

I am wondering if any have a system to get dry or do you

just get wet and suffer on?

 

Any try the nikwax products with success? Maybe on wool?

 

Dan

Edited April 25, 2010 by DanO

[DanO]

http://www.psychovertical.com/?thebestsoftshell

 

 

I found this article.

[mountainmandoug]

I've spent a lot of days out in the weather you described. I used to do SAR on the Olympic Peninsula, and I've backpacked in the rain quite a bit.

 

Down sleeping bags take quite a bit of managing in wet weather. Shelters are key. Small tents suck in prolonged rain. Big tarps and pyramid floorles shelters are the ticket. Not having a floor means you can go under the shelter in all of your wet raingear and boots, than take it all off, without getting your other gear wet in the process and without making a puddle on a tent floor. Combine one of these shelters with a bivy with a breathable top and a waterproof bottom and it's possible to keep a down bag dry pretty well in a long stretch of rain.

 

Clothing should be all synthetic. Wool absorbs more water and takes longer to dry. Down clothing will get wet and fail. A warm synthetic parka with hood will let you dry out your damp clothing underneath.

 

Wearing very little synthetic clothing under a hardshell seems to be the ticket. Sweat is a problem so you need to stay cool. A wide-brimmed hat is way better than a hood. The only gloves I've ever like for this weather is neoprene. The only boots I've ever like for this weather were all-leather with good waterproofing.

 

I find that you mostly keep moving during the day until you get to camp, than you pitch that big shelter and get under it. You take off the waterproofs and put on all of your insulated clothing and fire up the stove. You use hot drinks and food to ramp up your core temperature and metabolism to dry out your clothes. You than un-pack your sleeping gear and carefully set it up. You take off the insulated clothing and crawl into your bag nice and dry. In the morning you crawl part way out of your bag and put on your parka. You cook in your bag and get your metabolism fired up. Than you get up and pack the sleeping gear, pack everything else up, than get out of your shelter and take it down, packing it in such a way that it doesn't wet the rest of your gear.

 

I've found that pack covers fail in prolonged rain. Personally I've gone to all seam-taped stuff sacks to keep my gear dry. The one for the down bag has a roll-top.

 

Synthetic sleeping bags will let you dry some wet gear overnight in the bag. If you carry one that is markdly warmer than needed you can crawl into it all wet in the evening and wake up dry in the morning with little injury to your sleeping system. They tend to be heavy though.

[genepires]

I have spent too many days in the hills in the rain. The above advice is very sound but my best piece of advice I could offer is...if it rains, go home. really. Rain throws in another element into the slurry of objective hazards. You have got to be hardcore to want to summit anything in the rain. or are a SAR. or doing the pacific crest trail.

[mountainmandoug]

I agree that actually climbing anything technical in the rain is a bad idea. Over on the Peninsula we used to divert trips to Old Olympic hot springs when the weather sucked. I highly recommend hot springs as a rain-camping accessory.

[DanO]

Thanks for the replies this helps a lot.

 

It seems that your going to get wet no matter what and the

best you can do is manage that condition stay warm and get dried

out if you can in camp or when the rain stops.

 

I don't really plan to climb in wet weather, but would

like to have the kit for it if needed, also I am part

of SAR.

 

Dan

Edited April 25, 2010 by DanO

[stevetimetravlr]

You aren't going to get wet no matter what, read again what Mountainmandoug said. If you wear all synthetic/fleece clothing, including undergarments and a waterproof/breathable shell, you're good to go. Who cares if the shell stays wet? that is what its supposed to do, its doing its job, keeping most of the water out, while the synthetic layers keep the water that does make it thru off your body. Don't wear any cotton or wool, it holds the moisture. When you wear a shell, small amounts of water pass thru but with synthetic clothing it doesn't hold it, any wool or cotton will hold the water in place longer and you will feel damp and the evaporative cooling will chill you. You can be out in the backcounty in the rain for days at a time, small tent, backpacking, climbing, whatever, and stay dry and never need to start a fire as long as you use your head and dress right. Keeping your sleeping bag and extra clothes in waterproof stuff bags in your backpack is also key, and having a large plastic garbage sack to keep your pack in doesn't hurt.

[DanO]

I guess my experience is different I usually get mostly wet

after a few hours of hard rain even with a hard shell. From sweating and from the rain, it slowly seeps in everywhere. I

pretty much assumed this is a common experience? Wet snow and

rain is a tough combination as well.

 

A hard shell or soft shell does not really breath if the outer

skin is coated with water. I do find that pit zips help and having plenty of air moving around helps. I guess it depends on conditions, a mild rain is not so hard to deal with and you can

stay relatively dry in this situation.

 

Wool is a tough one to figure out, it does dry slowly compared

to many synthetics, but it is recommended for wet situations(old school?). Drying slower can help as it won't chill you as much as polyester fabric from rapid drying(rare problem), but it also is much harder to dry out inside your sleeping bag, wool socks and gloves almost impossible to dry out overnight.

 

I am wondering how wool would do once treated with a waterproof

wash, if that would make it much better or not? I have not seen

any information on this. I have and like Merino wool, a super

thin merino wool base layer does not seem harmful, but the wool gloves and socks that I have need to be treated or replaced.

 

I also have a few more heavy Merino wool Sweaters that I carry

from time to time, I guess I can treat or replace, I already

have polyester fleece zipper shirts. Also a few of those polypropylene military shirts.

 

Dan

 

Edited April 25, 2010 by DanO

[DanO]

Here is a situation, even if your fairly dry on the inside,

your shell gear is(could be) totally soaked, You can take

it off and lay it aside when settled into camp. But it

stays wet all night may even freeze if it gets cold enough,

this kind of thing happens to all of us.

 

Or you can wear it inside of your sleeping bag and try to dry it

out overnight. Not a pleasant thought in itself. So you have two unpleasant options.

 

It would be nice to have inexpensive gear that you could dry out

by evaporation by moving round or inside a sleeping bag. This is the way Buffalo gear seems to be designed to work, but I have zero experience with it. A little expensive for me to experiment with it, so thinking of alternatives.

 

I have a Marmot hard shell jacket that is nice it is of the older design and has a lot of fabric on the inside that if wet would be a total bear to dry inside a sleeping bag I suspect.

 

Maybe treating everything with waterproof wash would help greatly.

 

Dan

Edited April 25, 2010 by DanO

[Dane]

Couple of thoughts.

 

Gene, as always offeres good advice up front, "if it rains, go home. really.. So first is don't go out/stay out in the rain if you are climbing. It is slippery and rockfall and avalanche hazard increases by leaps and bounds.

 

Wool is a good base layer used in the right thickness. It will keep you much warmer than any synthetic when you need to dry out. Yes it dries slower. Which is a good thing when required.

 

Synthetics have their place but not always next to the skin and not always the only available insulation. As you'll read later I am careful about wool as a base layer on my lower body.

 

It aint old school. It is common sense if you have used both types of insulation.

 

My answer to the rainy NW is dress extremely light. I don't try to stay dry, just warm. When I stop I change to dry clothes other wise I "work" in the wet. That generally means a shell that is not totally water proof but is extremely breathable. Or maybe even a lwt merino wool sweater as the outer "shell". No pit zip, nothing fancy just a wind layer with some water resistance. I'll happily sacrifice having a lwt breathable upper and lower system totally soaked through and change to dry gear at the end of the day (or end of the approach) ...or just get in my synthetic bag with wet gear and dry it (some or totally) over night with body heat.

 

Hard shells don't go in your bag to dry..only your insulation or very breathable lwt shells.

 

Been soaked to the skin many times and walked myself dry again. Not a big possibility of accomplishing that in Goretex if your inner layers are soaked through.

 

If you are going from cold wet conditions to freezing conditions and don't have all this squared away you are asking for a real disaster. The same places SAR will end up.

 

Same reasons weather reports are REALLY important and why people die every year.

 

If I really want to stay dry. Like in SE Alaska for example where rain and 30 temps can be the norm day in and day out I use a totally water proof bib pant (commercial fishing gear) with a mesh liner and a good hooded Gortex jacket that over laps the pants. Knee high rubber boots go with that outfit as does a good hat of your choice.

 

That system will keep you dry in any amount of rain. But you also have to manage the level of physical activity and not soak everything with your own sweat.

 

Same idea when winter climbing in colder temps. Body temp management is no different in the rain than in the cold...what you'll pay for not doing it correctly is the differenece.

 

Camping...synthetic bags will dry some of your lwt gear with body heat...but it can't do miracles. But you will sleep warm. If it is raining you won't need a very thick synthetic bag.

 

Speaking of synthetics. Primaloft 1 really is the most effective synthetic available currenty and a big advancement in insulation. It makes a big difference in this application and in winter as well.

 

Tents? Want to stay dry? Think BIG and with a rain fly, as in dbl layer. Forget the single layer tends no matter the matterial. Bring a sponge to mop up the tent floor. Screw the open bottom tents in serious rain....water goes to the low point of what ever surface you are on. Tent floors keep some water out...sealed tent floors, tent foot prints set up with drainage in mind and an active sponge brigade will keep the rest to a managable level.

 

Boots?

 

Nothing will keep you dry in real rain. Rubber boots get wet from the inside and your own sweat. Gortex, leather, plastic? All get wet eventually if you are out long enough and it is coming down hard enough. Either from the inside or the outside. Or over the top....and down inside the boot. So? Fit your boots with light enough soxes that you can dry out your spares over night or during the day inside your layers.

 

Dry soxes will prevent immersion foot even with wet boots for a while...but not forever.

 

Wash in or spray on conditioners? They are not the answer. Clothing and body temp mangament skills are.

 

Refresh your gear as required but don't look to the wash in/spray on additons as miracle workers either.

 

Little story for you.

 

We once started a long alpine climb (Canadin Rockies not the Cascades) in good weather that 4 hrs later was a light rain. By day's end it was a steady rain and we were stuck in a water fall trying to finish the last 300' of the climb...now 1000m off the ground. We were wearing mostly wool but had synthetic bags. We went to bed totally soaked but protected from the elements for the most part by an over hanging rock wall above us. Dry in the morning we finished the water fall pitch and totally soaked again, started the descent and 16 mile walk out to the road. By that day's end we had been soaked for 16 hrs and it started to rain hard again....still a good 10 miles form the road but this time with no shelter but our bivy bags and damp sleeping bags.

 

I woke up during the night with a soaking wet sleeping bag and a puddle at my head 1/2" deep inside my bag....it was really raining hard. I moved out of the comfortable depression I was in for an uncomfortable knoll that drained water, and more than tired, went back to sleep. We got up as the rain stopped and walked our now only damp clothing, dry again, the next day.

 

The one thing I wish...would have been different? The Harris tweed knickers rubbed my inner thighs so raw they were bleeding long before we hit the road on day 3. My leather boots were wet for a week after getting home but finally dried out stuffed with news paper. While wet the entire three days for the most part I was never really cold the entire trip. I was scared though...knowing what could happen if the temps dropped or we couldn't continue to keep moving. I had dreams of a hot, dry towel fresh out of the dryer for years after that trip.

 

The one addition that would have made life something like 1000x better on that trip? A light weight pair of synthetic long johns under those wool knickers.

 

With 1000s of $ of the most modern gear in my closet at the moment I would be hard pressed to be that comfortable in those conditions today.

 

My answer if I were to do the same climb now? Pay more attention to what your first layer is, head to toe, dress lighter, climb faster...and the most important?? Don't climb in the freakin RAIN

[mountainmandoug]

It sounds like the general technique is to admit that you will get wet, and try to absorb as little moisture as possible. Using synthetic insulation to try and dry out your wet gear. Managing your body temperature, sweat, moisture ingress is really the crux of the operation.

 

Notes about freezing weather. When I have soaked shell layers and I expect it to freeze overnight I usually put them in some sort of waterproof bag and put them under my sleeping bag so they don't freeze.

 

You might want to check out http://www.aktrekking.com/gear.html. These folks have more experience in the wet and cold than anyone I know of.

[BirdDog]

Danes advise is really good - dress as light as you possibly can. Keep two base layers with you, wear one while your moving, and then change when you stop. You can dry the wet one out in your bag, or just stick it back on knowing you have a dry one if you get cold.

 

Also, make sure your outer wear has a good DWR finish on it. Renew it when the water does not bead up. Keeping the DWR finish is top condition allows the outer wear to breath much more than if it's soaked.

[JoshK]

Lots of good advice here. I'm going to risk getting made fun of here, but one thing I have used in a few situations is an umbrella. Granted it is no use in schwacking or technical terrain but for trail walking or huddling under while taking a break they can be great.

[JasonG]

An old friend of the family, Dwight Watson, once said "never start a trip in the rain". Like Gene and many others, I tend to heed this time tested advice. The old timers didn't have the fancy gear, so usually stayed put when it poured and waited it out, or they didn't go when the weather was obviously bad.

 

While I think the advice on modern gear in this thread is good, things are still going to suck when it pours- you are just talking about managing the suck factor and trying to keep it as low as possible. Whatever you choose other than cotton or down is probably fine, just plan on varying degrees of misery until you can get near a raging fire and some good single malt.

 

In all seriousness though, I have to hand it to the SAR folks as they often get the call when conditions are really sucking. My hat is off to you!

[genepires]

oh the umbrella is such a sweet thing to have. Thanks Josh for bringing back the memory of the awesome alpine weather shield. I would get the craziest looks when the umbrella was strapped next to a picket on the pack. But when I was walking down the trail in a down pour (going home of course) under the umbrella with no goretex jacket on, those crazy looks turned to envy. (I have an aversion to wearing goretex) I had to use the axe to keep others from crowding underneath.

 

I always had the ultralight small model kind cause that is how I roll. But I remember Paul Rosser used the LARGE golfing kind. He rolls large in every way and his umbrella matched his personna. I think he could fit 6 under it. No one dared to tread on his precious dry ground though.

 

umbrellas work good in low wind situations so it is mainly a below treeline tool. I lost a couple to the wind gods on the glaciers of the mighty Baker-horn. A small one could be worth the weight if you were strictly backpacking.

 

I always had a dry pair of thermal top and bottom for sleeping. I would not wear wet clothes at night but just put the wet clothes back on in the morning and sack up. But I always have down bags so I could not dry my clothes out if unable to dry the bag the following day.

 

Dang Dane, that wet trip sounds insane. Props for hanging in there when the rain started. I run at the first sign foulness.

 

ditto to the thanks to SAR guys. Much like the lineman guys with PUD, they are always out in the sick weather, doing good work. Thanks SAR and PUD lineman.

[NoahT]

I've used big golf-style umbrellas on sea kayaking trips...super sweet. I've always thought I'd man up and take one on some future expedition-length alpine trip. Where weight doesn't count quite as much.

 

There's nothing worse than having to venture out in the middle of the night while it's pouring rain to drop a deuce...and nothing sweeter than doing under an umbrella.

 

Glad to know I'm not alone...!

 

Cheers, N

 

 

[DanO]

I hear you guys and understand exactly and agree, but find it interesting that in the UK they often intend to go out and climb in wet conditions.

 

http://www.scotclimb.org.uk/intherain.shtml

 

 

I find the buffalo system interesting, as it is made to be

in the wet environment and deals with it pretty well.

 

http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/Buffalo_Your_Stories.htm

 

I got a lot of new good information from everyone.

 

Thanks

 

 

Dan

 

Edited April 26, 2010 by DanO