Chopped bolts

[Pilchuck71]

i'd rather see kevbone as "rock sheriff".

kevbone needs to get out and actually climb some more before he gets that title... (love ya kev, but its true )

 

At an average of 6 posts a day for the last 6 years, how would it possible for him to get out climb at all?

[el jefe]

i'm sure you could count on one hand the number of times either one has roped up in the past year. let's just agree that if time spent climbing recently is a qualification for the office of "rock sheriff", then neither of these guys would be a viable candidate.

[KirkW]

Hey Jefe,

 

How come anytime someone mentions BOLT you show up and start flapping your jaws and flaming? I find it interesting that you never really have anything constructive to contribute to these conversations (or any other conversation as far as I can tell) but you are always involved in flaming anyone who even talks about bolt removal. Now that's bullshit. If you don't climb there on a regular basis (do you even climb outside at all?) then how about you mind your own business and let these guys figure it out themselves? Mmmkay?

[el jefe]

Hey Jefe,

 

How come anytime someone mentions BOLT you show up and start flapping your jaws and flaming? I find it interesting that you never really have anything constructive to contribute to these conversations (or any other conversation as far as I can tell) but you are always involved in flaming anyone who even talks about bolt removal. Now that's bullshit. If you don't climb there on a regular basis (do you even climb outside at all?) then how about you mind your own business and let these guys figure it out themselves? Mmmkay?

 

someone wake up on the wrong side of the bed? really, dude, what we are engaged in here re: the "rock sheriff" is what you call "playful banter" -- i.e., goofing around, having fun, etc. you should lighten up and give it a try some time.

 

and as for whether i get outside at all, well, the answer is "yes". shoot me a pm if you'd like to come along.

[KirkW]

Hey Jefe,

 

How come anytime someone mentions BOLT you show up and start flapping your jaws and flaming? I find it interesting that you never really have anything constructive to contribute to these conversations (or any other conversation as far as I can tell) but you are always involved in flaming anyone who even talks about bolt removal. Now that's bullshit. If you don't climb there on a regular basis (do you even climb outside at all?) then how about you mind your own business and let these guys figure it out themselves? Mmmkay?

 

someone wake up on the wrong side of the bed? really, dude, what we are engaged in here re: the "rock sheriff" is what you call "playful banter" -- i.e., goofing around, having fun, etc. you should lighten up and give it a try some time.

 

and as for whether i get outside at all, well, the answer is "yes". shoot me a pm if you'd like to come along.

 

Oh... so now I'm the uptight asshole and this is all playful banter and goofing around. My bad. Thanks for clearing things up. I guess I'll just lighten up and defer to your obviously superior judgement and skill as both a well respected climber and prolific contributer to CC. Thanks for putting me in my place. I'll stay there from now on.

 

And you can stop sending me PMs. I'm not ever gonna climb with you. You should get over that and just move on with your life. I hardly ever get out. All my gear is brand new and shiny. I don't even know how to use most of it. I weigh 300 pounds and haven't seen my penis in over a decade. I'm actually really afraid of heights and I still live with my mom. However I really aspire to be a climbing god like you someday. 8D

 

[el jefe]

Hey Jefe,

 

How come anytime someone mentions BOLT you show up and start flapping your jaws and flaming? I find it interesting that you never really have anything constructive to contribute to these conversations (or any other conversation as far as I can tell) but you are always involved in flaming anyone who even talks about bolt removal. Now that's bullshit. If you don't climb there on a regular basis (do you even climb outside at all?) then how about you mind your own business and let these guys figure it out themselves? Mmmkay?

 

someone wake up on the wrong side of the bed? really, dude, what we are engaged in here re: the "rock sheriff" is what you call "playful banter" -- i.e., goofing around, having fun, etc. you should lighten up and give it a try some time.

 

and as for whether i get outside at all, well, the answer is "yes". shoot me a pm if you'd like to come along.

 

Oh... so now I'm the uptight asshole and this is all playful banter and goofing around. My bad. Thanks for clearing things up. I guess I'll just lighten up and defer to your obviously superior judgement and skill as both a well respected climber and prolific contributer to CC. Thanks for putting me in my place. I'll stay there from now on.

 

And you can stop sending me PMs. I'm not ever gonna climb with you. You should get over that and just move on with your life. I hardly ever get out. All my gear is brand new and shiny. I don't even know how to use most of it. I weigh 300 pounds and haven't seen my penis in over a decade. I'm actually really afraid of heights and I still live with my mom. However I really aspire to be a climbing god like you someday. 8D

 

time for you to check out a class on anger management, atreides.

 

 

[justinp]

U fawkers are funny

 

[billcoe]

i'm sure you could count on one hand the number of times either one has roped up in the past year. let's just agree that if time spent climbing recently is a qualification for the office of "rock sheriff", then neither of these guys would be a viable candidate.

 

Jim's followed me up probably over 10-15 new routes in the last year (so if we can climb them you know they're easy) and belayed me on a few more he chose not to follow - whereas Kevbone is gonna be old and fat like me if he's not careful, (nudge nudge) I don't see him out as much. Truthfully, all of us would be bad sheriffs I'd suppose.

 

 

 

 

This only looks like ground, it's a notch in a cliff @250' up.

 

Endeavor to Persevere gentlemen!

[eldiente]

Sheriff ey? In most sports, the "best" get to decide the direction of the sport. Mostly because it assumed that whoever raises to the top 1.) knows a thing or two about the sport. 2.) is obsessively dedicated to the sport 3.) deserves a reward for being good at said sport.

 

Same rules should go for sport wanking (ok call it trad, but that's a tough term when you're rap cleaning.) Basically whoever has the highest 8a. score gets to be the sheriff and has final say on bolts and other such matters. Done.

 

(That was sort of satirical but I would say that CC.com should follow the same rules. Seems like the folks who are posting the most are climbing the least. Correlation there I suppose. Here's an idea, no joke. For every TR you post, you are rationed say 20 postings that you can use however you like. If you can't find the time to get out and climb a bit, how on Earth do you find time to post a zillion posts on CC.com?)

[el jefe]

i'm sure you could count on one hand the number of times either one has roped up in the past year. let's just agree that if time spent climbing recently is a qualification for the office of "rock sheriff", then neither of these guys would be a viable candidate.

 

Jim's followed me up probably over 10-15 new routes in the last year (so if we can climb them you know they're easy) and belayed me on a few more he chose not to follow - whereas Kevbone is gonna be old and fat like me if he's not careful, (nudge nudge) I don't see him out as much. Truthfully, all of us would be bad sheriffs I'd suppose.

 

 

 

 

This only looks like ground, it's a notch in a cliff @250' up.

 

Endeavor to Persevere gentlemen!

 

bill, you two are probably not the best choice for sheriff, but i suspect you make a pretty good posse.

[JosephH]

So Jim chopped Bryan's new line. Hmmmm, now that is a bit peculiar.

 

I guess before I'd say anything else I'd preface my comments by saying in general I don't share Bryan's taste in routes and from what I've seen he prefers very Broughtons-like climbing - faces holds, long desperate reaches, and small sharp holds - cool for Bryan, but not my deal in general. His taste in lines by definition send him onto faces that will typically require some bolts. I'd go further and say I personally wouldn't have bolted the bottom of 'Naughty & Nice', the line left of 'Tunnel Vision' (TV itself being great), or his new line, but that's me and Bryan knows exactly how I feel in this regard.

 

But I was out a couple of weeks ago when Bryan and Tyler were there doing the new line and as I walked over to it I have to admit to not being very happy seeing the bolts on it, but didn't say anything. They offered me a ride on it so I did a TR go of it given I hadn't been climbing that much over the winter. On climbing the route I found it to be typical and in line with what I perceive Bryan likes in a route - small, hard, reachy moves. As I said, really not my deal, but even if I had been in shape I wouldn't have been able to climb it without those two bolts so in the end I kept my mouth shut and didn't say a word about the bolts.

 

Now, putting aside some clearly unfortunate and inconsistent communication issues, I think part of the general issue here is Bryan's taste in climbing is just decidedly more Broughtons / Ozone than the more crack / traddish nature a lot of folks have had in mind for DZ/FS. There are no doubt an lots of partially or wholly bolted lines that could be done there, but putting them in will result in DZ/FS becoming just another Ozone which I think I can safely say is definitely not a future any of us has had in mind. Opdycke's whole mantra on the place early on (which I was glad to hear) was "keeping it real", by which he meant trad and putting in lines that worked with the stone and might keep the place significantly less PRG-O / zoo-like - basically a bit of a trad off-season camp. Lines to Bryan's tastes typically tend to require bolts more often then not and so I think that tends to clash around the edges a bit with others' more trad vision for the place.

 

Still, despite not necessarily being personally wild about some of the choices Bryan has been making, I'm more than a bit surprised to hear Jim would have chopped the line and doing it without talking with him about it; doubly so given Jim's been advocating for an aid practice bolt ladder on the most striking part of DZ/FS at the same time. I like Jim (and everyone else involved) - and think he was spot on with his original call for "keeping it real" out there - but I also think there are times when that essential message and imperative has been tossed under the bus and forgotten in fits of enthusiastic frenzy.

 

Overall, and particularly because I find DZ/FS to be one of the most charming places I've ever climbed, I think we'd all be well served by trying to remember it's not just our personal playpen, but a beautiful and natural place in its own right (however abused by garbage historically) and very much deserving of us trying to heed Jim's original call to "keep it real". That probably means we all have to make at least a few hard decisions around our choices or we risk it becoming a zoo.

Edited March 30, 2010 by JosephH

[cja]

Acknowledging that I'm inserting something here that doesn't belong, please don't flame me for that... BUT since all the "elders" are reading this thread on an hourly basis, and those folks are the demographic to whom this might appeal, and since it's a timely thing...I just came across this ad on Craigslist for a lot of old (unused) pitons. If anybody's interested in 'em, I reckon you guys would know that person. (I personally have no connection to this ad and have not responded to it either):

 

http://portland.craigslist.org/clc/clt/1667332339.html

 

Just so I am on subject a little too, I have a question that relates to the conversation, and you can flame me for this part of my post (After following this thread for the past 2 days I guess I'd be a little disappointed if nobody did.)...

 

Using Ozone and myself as a point of reference and example, over the past 4 years I've climbed (led) almost every route in the guidebook, and the newer ones save the new harder (proper) 12s. Now, I say almost because there are a few trad lines that I've not bothered to get on, even if they appear to once have been nice lines. I mean to say they look like no one's been on them for quite some time...

 

Obviously, Ozone is so popular because it's so close and there are a lot of moderate (mostly) clip up routes there, and, for me, it's been a favorite place to go to build confidence leading both sport and trad routes...it's only recently that I've gone back to Broughton and, less intimidated, found a whole new world opened up to me there.

 

I've been to the Drop Zone 4 or 5 times, climbed there 3 or 4 times, and probably only ventured onto 6 routes, since I've had no beta other than what my eyes and imagination feed me. I've never seen anyone else there, and, were it not for a few threads like this one and a lot of fixed lines, I might not have known anyone was going there currently at all.

 

I like going and having the place all to myself and my partner as much as I'm sure all you folks do, and that statement might end up being the best answer to my question; my question is this: once you guys have invested all the work and time in cleaning these walls (and thanks are due here) and you've done all the climbs there you deem appropriate and desirable, what's going to keep the place from going back to the wilds 4 years from now?

 

Put another way, how come nobody seems to be climbing the trad lines at Ozone? Is it "been there, done that, don't need to go back"? Or is it the weekend crowds of otherwise gym climbers? The traffic, though a pain when it's crowded, keeps routes clean, and who among us doesn't get a kick out of collecting new booty, be it biners or pro?? If the sport routes weren't there would there be more traffic on the trad lines?...I really don't know.

 

I guess I'm ultimately questioning why a cragging area ought to be entirely free of sport routes...unless the answer is really just to keep the masses away? Is it offensive to have a bolt line in view to one's left or right when cragging a trad line? I'm all for it if someone can make it seem more reasonable.

[JosephH]

The short answer (in my case) is 'yes' - both it's a drag and they draw crowds. It's very much a "bolt it and they will come..." sort of deal. It's not a scene I for one would want to see at DZ/FS at all and that's exactly what would happen.

 

As far as it going back wild, the climbs I like will stay clean as long as I'm here, I suspect the same for other folks and their favorite lines. I will say though, lot of work has gone on at each end of the place for what seems to me to be a matter of rapidly dimishing returns, but the guys seem to enjoy doing it so it's ok by me I guess. If stuff folks don't climb goes wild again in the end that's completely fine with me.

Edited March 31, 2010 by JosephH

[Checat]

my question is this: once you guys have invested all the work and time in cleaning these walls (and thanks are due here) and you've done all the climbs there you deem appropriate and desirable, what's going to keep the place from going back to the wilds 4 years from now?

 

cja, you should get a lot of response, or at least you should flame or no flame.

 

As someone who has spent a great deal of time climbing and developing at a completely bolt-less area - this question is constantly there for me.

 

Being a boltless crag each developer has the obligation to re-clean their routes year to year if they expect others to climb it. As other developers moved on from the area I've even taken on the task of re-cleaning their old lines to hold a torch to their efforts (because I think FAing and development and all the values associated is important).

 

A lot of developers bolt for the wrong reasons- sometimes due to this notion that if there isn't a bolt there, the route ceases to exist. Poor form.

 

What has this led to, guidebook development. Presenting boltless routes to future developers may at least give pause to unneeded bolts.

 

The most recent Alpinist presents an article from Lisa Hathaway focusing on these very issues at Mill Creek Canyon Utah, an area not much bigger than the crags referenced in this thread, but one much more on a national stage of awareness. She emphasized how disappointed initial developers were to find routes that they had climbed for years without bolts with zero problems, suddenly bolted because of the nature of modern crag development. She mentions mixed bolt/gear routes as an obscure thing, but if you climb around portland this is a very common concept.

 

My question back to you is: Is putting a bolt in the only way to prevent a route from "going back to the wilds 4 years from now"?

 

p.s. short answer to your "back to the wilds" question - CLIMB THE ROUTE, get more of your buddies to quit clipping bolts and teach em to place cams. A route doesn't have to have bolts for people to climb them and all too often that "bolt it and they will come" attitude rules out, which is b-shit.

[LostCamKenny]

cj~

personally, ozone reminds me too much of a gym, and i grew out of the gym scene. climbing for me is more about the adventure and less about sheer difficulty, which is what i feel that gyms push on newer climbers - climb as hard as you can and always strive to push the limits of difficulty. i feel this way when i climb at ozone because the top of many climbs is a couple of drilled bolts which are placed below the actual top of many routes. i like summits, pure and simple, and ozone has no actual summit for me. this is not to say that one cannot develop themselves at this crag because that is absolutely not true... take yourself for example, huh?

 

farside is less developed which adds a bit more appeal to me since i don't know as much what to expect there, and dirty - to me - is much more like undiscovered country and thus far more exciting - for me. in the grand scheme of things there is little that actually differentiates ozone from farside, though jim will smack me for saying that! there are some things i like about farside better than ozone and vice versa, i suppose. definitely traffic has a lot to do with it too - ozone is POPULAR and i got into climbing because i wanted to avoid what was common or popular... doing something unique rather than be a lemming following the masses... plus, i have many other more interesting ventures elsewhere (besides farside, too). if farside were to grow over then it would just take a few motivated guys to go out there and do a little housework to bring it back - not hard...

 

farside, since it is still awaiting lots more development, is a great place for training, and practicing techniques that you might use on longer, greater adventures. some plans that i have heard jim speak of are really interesting and worth pursuing further, though i'm not sure how much of a hand i'll have in any of it myself. there are those who think it hypocritical to do some projects there and then scorn others (as you have read on this thread) but mainly it is the ability to have an open mind that will allow these projects to see completion...

 

i don't hold it against anyone who likes or even loves either of these places, and i will go to both throughout the course of the year, but i don't go to either as much as i go to beacon which is where i'll spend most of my time... i'd much rather spend my days doing lap after lap on the corner (when it opens, that is) than go to ozone or farside, regardless of how much closer either are!

 

Edited March 31, 2010 by LostCamKenny

[Raindawg]

This whole "discussion" is very entertaining.

The "bolters" don't own public space...Who does? I do and everybody else does...and nobody has a right to gratuitously and permanently alter OUR personal space.

Get used to the future..which is CLEAN and GREEN!

Bolt chopping? = a good clean form of monkey-wrenching (read a little Edward Abbey - "climbers" really should). I predict that it will become a trend and in the future it will be seen as positive and revolutionary.

 

- Raindawg/Dwayner/Don

[kevbone]

[kevbone]

I love gym climbing. I love sport climbing. I love crack climbing. I love climbing at Beacon. I love climbing in groups. I love climbing with just one partner. I love climbing at all the portland areas. I just love to rock climb.

[stevetimetravlr]

I don't think the trad lines at Ozone have ever been very clean. With a few exceptions like that short 5.8 finger crack and some of the mixed routes. Correct me if Im wrong...

[kevbone]

[crimper]

...is there an implied obligation to keep one's FAs clean?...

 

aside from the very few FAs i have been fortunate enough to do groundup, which was only because the climb was already clean enough that it COULD be groundup (and thus couldn't lapse into obscurity due to getting dirty), i feel that obligation. even if i never put it that way before.

 

but usually (i.e. i am in portland, not bend) i wind up having to take the time to rap in and clean the moss and choss on any less than overhanging chunk of stone. that's when i start to feel a sense that with the cleaning i am doing - no matter how much or how little - i am destroying what has existed in its little niche for centuries or millennia, and i start to make a barely-conscious vow that this climb will be "worth it." and by that i mean, this is a route that i will complete (in terms of no bolts, or needing bolts) in a way that keeps me leading it unrehearsed for years to come, and a route i would tell a good friend to try and onsight. (there might be normal to big fall potential, but it ought to be clean) always always with no bolts as the ideal, but when there simply is no gear and the fall appears unacceptable...

 

anyway, so to me there is an implied duty to keep repeating the climb and keep it from lapsing into obscurity. if it wasn't worth repeating, why be so selfish as to destroy so much life, so much of the natural environment, just for the brief ego stroke of "another FA ?" climbs need love too!

 

(i wasn't really sensitive to my actions when i put up my first few routes, but eventually the truth became more clear)

 

there wasn't a route i cleaned or a bolt i sank with a borrowed drill that i didn't feel damn sure i'd be climbing this route as long as i live here and can. i would obviously hope that everyone else is equally amped on their routes and agonizes over serious trundling or placing fixed pro because it's a profound act. but groundup FAs? f*&^, it, you're just trying not to fall, clean that s(^!

 

 

 

[crimper]

...but back to joe's point...

 

my god i'd be devastated if drop zone became ozone. crushed. er, just kidding.

 

but seriously, the routes at drop zone are and should stay heady. whether they be pure trad, heady mixed, or aid. so far there is no "bolts only" or "sport" climb, and based upon both the dominant trad ethic and the tiny amount of uncolonized rock left at this point, i feel safe saying there won't be one. put me on the record.

 

i've always been a little defensive and said "there is significant trad" on each of the routes i put up there - but it's also true. it's true because none of us have even considered the concept of connecting the bolts/dots up a face. each of my routes climbs primarily cracks, but i've been bold/controversial/stupid/willing enough to put a bolt or two on the sections of face that break up the cracks. does that cut against the grain of "no bolts?" of course. but aren't they still dominantly trad lines? don't they demand the same skills - and thus keep away climbers who haven't invested in trad skills - as the neighboring routes?

 

trad is rad, but a little diversity will not undermine the crag's dominant trad character.

 

these are the kinds of thing jim and i talked about. at least that's my take...here we go... again...)

 

 

[Checat]

 

She emphasized how disappointed initial developers were to find routes that they had climbed for years without bolts with zero problems, suddenly bolted because of the nature of modern crag development.

 

This sounds like a different issue. Like some asshole bolted a line that had already been climbed. That was not the case in this thread.

 

Thought we were beyond simply the one route in question. The author identified "re-development" in the case at Mill Creek Canyon as unknowningly bolting routes that were former bolt-less. Thus the advantages of a well developed guidebook...

[kevbone]

[cja]

my question is this: once you guys have invested all the work and time in cleaning these walls (and thanks are due here) and you've done all the climbs there you deem appropriate and desirable, what's going to keep the place from going back to the wilds 4 years from now?

 

 

 

My question back to you is: Is putting a bolt in the only way to prevent a route from "going back to the wilds 4 years from now"?

 

p.s. short answer to your "back to the wilds" question - CLIMB THE ROUTE, get more of your buddies to quit clipping bolts and teach em to place cams. A route doesn't have to have bolts for people to climb them and all too often that "bolt it and they will come" attitude rules out, which is b-shit.

 

 

To clarify my question(s), I'm not advocating a)anything or b)adding bolts to established routes...

 

I deleted some from my previous post before sending it for slightly more brevity. Part of what I deleted was explaining that I totally get the "offense" of adding bolts to an established route (and can also see that even within that niche there could be plenty of discussion)...

 

I also get the offense some take to putting bolts anywhere that removable pro could be substituted safely, and certainly there could be (and undoubtedly has been) more discussion here. (For instance I've been climbing without a guidebook before, at Ozone even, before the book, and gone up routes without gear not realizing that there's one spot with some healthy spacing you can't see from the ground, because gear can be used.)

 

As far as going back to the wilds, my point was that traffic is what keeps routes clean if no one is putting effort forth directly toward that end (cleaning). I imagine that most of us can agree that adding sport routes would add more traffic to any given area (contrast to route). What I'm not sure about is whether any conclusion can be made about how adding sport routes might affect traffic on trad routes in that area...If there were no clip ups at Ozone, would the trad lines there see more or less traffic? If there were sport routes at DZ, would the present lines see less traffic? Apparently maybe, if respondents here can be presumed to vacate the area after the masses show up, but then I'm wondering if that will happen anyway when the routes are all done and the excitement wears off.

 

Raindawg, so far as I'm concerned, has given the only answer (to my question about bolts being offensive) that is reasonable, as I asked for, and not selfish (I'm as selfish as the next guy--no need to take offense at that fellas--we're all Americans and want everything to ourselves.)

 

...I haven't thought for a long time about bolts being foreign and unnatural, leaving a trace where ideally there should be none...but if that notion/argument floats one's boat, then one might be reminded how much greater the impact of cleaning the route in the first place. I think that safety ought to be paramount to this question of local ethic (where no bolts allowed) and I thereby agree wholly with Crimper's philosophy on protecting the route against otherwise unprotectable dangerous falls--if the route is going to be put up at all...and, yet again, I can see an argument being made that it should not have been...

 

I might add that when I first read Raindawg's comment I (mistakenly) took it as sarcasm against the "purists" who don't own the land anymore than the gym rats do (or the trail runners or the mountain bikers or the hunters or freight train companies).

 

Anybody that's still reading this particular post is probably pretty bored at this point. Suffice to say that we all (hopefully) realize there aren't black and white answers to these questions that we're all going to agree on. What I'm interested in is HOW one guy's route (or routes) on public land affects another's, because, shy of that effect, I don't get WHY the first guy gets to claim the whole area...After all how do we define the area?...Case in point, we're talking about the same cliff band with maybe a thousand feet of dirt in the middle; keep cleaning long enough and it can all be one Dozone.

 

To put my thought in on someone else's question, I suppose I do agree that if we go through all the trundling and brushing and uprooting and herbicides and pressure washing in some cases, then perhaps we ought to think about what will ensure future use that might help justify all that impact. If a safety bolt here or there does it, then I'm all for it.

 

If we put as much time collectively into appealing to the powers that be as we do into endless arguments like this, we could go a long way toward having Beacon open year-round with more isolated closures like we all want.

 

As for me, I've far exceeded my personal quota on forum posting for the day (month maybe), so I'll be MIA for at least a little while.

 

Good on y'all, and I'm glad the matter at hand seems to have been resolved.