Ascender back-up device

[layton]

Hey,

A buddy of mine let me use his Yates Rocker on a recent big wall. I loved it. I never really though about using a 3rd device below the jumars, but I didn't have to tie a back-up knot and felt way secure even when the ascenders slipped.

 

Anyway, Yates stopped making them. Does anyone have experience using this system with

a)gri-gri

b)petzl shunt

c)petzl micocender

 

I'm gonna try them out, but would need to order the microcender if that's the only one that really works well. I assume the gri-gri wouldn't feed smooth whatsoever and you'd have to constantly pull the rope through.

[fern]

I've used the 2xJumar above Gri-gri w/ no backup knot system. Twas many years ago...but I do not remember feeding problems maybe depends on angle and my wall was steep. Also lower-outs were dreamy and easy. I do not think the shunt or microcender would be as dreamy for the lowerouts. (maybe they aren't even called lowerouts? I mean like when you are cleaning a roof or traverse and you push a rope bight through a loop of tat that is left behind then lower off rather than cutting loose on a pendulum?)

[layton]

thanks fern, I'll give that a try tomorrow since the weather sux here.

 

I sincerely hate jugging, it always scares the shit out of me, but I hate tying back-up knots even more and sometimes you can't if the line's a full rope stretcher since then the next jugger can't reach the end.

[G-spotter]

ushba basic

 

Troll in the UK makes something identical to the rocker, too...

[mountainmandoug]

If you can afford it there are a whole host of devices designed for commercial rope-access work that might fill the bill.

[layton]

ok, i did a few laps with different set-ups I own. Gri-gri and Shunt do not work well at all, nor would anything that doesn't let the rope slide nice and loose. It made bringing up my lower jumar horrible. I think anything that actively clamps the rope would suck, which is why that yates rocker was so nice b/c it only bit the rope if yanked on...

 

So on a whim I attached a tiblock with a smaller/thinner spined biner to my belay loop. Worked great! Slid right up and the rope was a fat 10.5. I'll be using the tibloc from now on as my back-up.

 

Anyone have a suggestion for a really thin spine locker or non-locker out there?

[cbcbd]

Although I haven't used it for aid climbing I've used my Microcender for top-rope belaying. Very smooth and feeds well especially with more than 10' of dangling rope weight beneath it.

I guess the plus of it is that it doesn't have any teeth.

[layton]

Yeah, I'd buy the Micocender for continuous or sketchy jugging. Tibloc is the cheapest lightest option that works. I'd still rather slip onto a tiblock than 50 feet onto a back-up knot.

I've always wondered what a long fall would do to a clove hitch vs. a fig-8 on a bight. Could it cut the rope on itself?

[Rad]

Tiblocs rock, but I've never fallen onto one, just used for ascending rope. If you plan to fall a lot on one part of the rope that might be sketchy as the teeth may damage the sheath.

[layton]

I seriously hope my ascenders never fail so badly that I would fall onto it. I would probably concider retiring the rope and myself if that happened. For simul climbing it would probably be more of a "hang" unless you're being extra stooopid.

 

Still (just in theory), I bet it would only shred the sheath.

[Wallstein]

Try a Petzl Mini Traxion.

 

Tiblocs really don't like dynamic loads in my experience. They can trash the rope really quickly.

 

I've never been a fan of the Gri-Gri. Definitely safer but way slower. And as far as lower outs go I don't think there is significant advantage using a gri-gri over other techniques.

 

If you use a Mini-Traxion (or a pro) and the terrain become really low angle you can just pop off your ascenders and start free climbing and still have a "belay." You can also just start batmanning the rope, which is actually really efficient sometimes.

[tomtom]

So on a whim I attached a tiblock with a smaller/thinner spined biner to my belay loop. Worked great! Slid right up and the rope was a fat 10.5. I'll be using the tibloc from now on as my back-up.

 

Anyone have a suggestion for a really thin spine locker or non-locker out there?

 

This is not a good idea.

 

Tibloc Tech Info

 

1. Proper usage of a tibloc requires a biner with a barstock diameter of 10 to 12 mm. The biner pushes the rope into the teeth, so it has to be of the right size and shape to do so.

 

2. Proper usage of a tibloc requires that the teeth be set into the rope sheath before weighting. Typically this is done with the thumb. Not doing this risks ripping the sheath (and my experience supports this).

 

3. Falling on a toothed ascender is never a good idea. Fall far enough and the device will chop the rope. People use mini traxions for solo toproping, but the system is rigged so that there is little slack.

 

You can do what you want, but I wouldn't recommend this system to others.

[layton]

looks like the traxion devices have teeth too. Anyway, the amount you would fall would be the length of a caribeener and 1/2 of a belay loop, and that would be only under a really rare fall.

Edited March 28, 2010 by layton

[Wallstein]

 

3. Falling on a toothed ascender is never a good idea. Fall far enough and the device will chop the rope. People use mini traxions for solo toproping, but the system is rigged so that there is little slack.

 

You can do what you want, but I wouldn't recommend this system to others.

 

I'm not understanding this logic. People use toothed ascenders to ascend ropes all the time and you are saying this is dangerous? Do you only use prusiks?

 

Using a mini-traxion is only slightly different than using a third ascender except the mini is even harder to come off the rope.

 

Petzl states mini-traxions can be used for self belay. Read here : Tech info

 

Yes mini-traxions and Petzl ascenders can cut the rope if you take a fall onto them, if you are trying to safeguard against this I recommend a separate belay line, but this isn't what Layton was asking about. The only system i can see possibly preventing a cut line is to use a prusik above your top ascender, but in real world situations this would be a complete pain in the ass and never worth the compromise you'd loose in efficiency.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dberdinka]

Go Google "Arresting a self belayed fall: A Comparison of Hitches and Ascenders".

 

Basically a fall factor of 1 will cut the sheath but not the mantle. The only time you're ever going to get even close to a FF of 1 is as you approach the anchor. It's pretty easy to jug up to an anchor and have a bunch of slack in your system (mantelling or stepping up on a nice comfy ledge) So...I'm. Always extra careful to keep all slack out of the system and clip in as quickly as possible directly to it. Common sense I guess but there's a good reason for it. I use a Mini, they're handy for many things.

[mountainmandoug]

There are numerous devices designed to hold a fall on a rope. This idea is commonplace in both commercial rope access and rope rescue. None of these devices use a toothed cam, many of them are designed to slip at a certain load (usually around 4kn). They area all stronger, more reliable, and will do no more damage to a rope than a prusik. They are much easier to use.

 

The Petzle Rescue Ascender/Micro Ascender are some of the better examples of such devices. Look at the work section of Petzle's website to learn about the others.

 

I have some experience top-roping with a Rescue Ascender and it works flawlessly for that purpose, requires pretty much no tending going up and locks right away if weighted. It cannot come off the rope if it is properly installed. The only downside is the weight, and the Micro version helps that.

[layton]

I totally argree that the non-toothed devices that are designed to slip under 4kn are the best for the scenario I've discussed...in all but weight (and cost) saving. I'd get one for regular "sustained" jumaring for sure.

 

Darin, that's a solid point, but if you did have a bunch of slack etc for those situations (doing a few free moves, mantling onto a ledge, etc) wouldn't the weight come onto your two jumars 1st? i.e. your back-up (let's say tibloc for the sake of argument) would still, even in this even, be your back-up?

 

And Wallsteen (nice send in the jungle btw!) I thought the same thing. Why would a tibloc be any more damaging to the rope than any other toothed rope clamp like the traxions or jumars they make? I've never quite understood that.

 

even non-toothed devices can do rope damage. I've heard of Gri-Gri's chopping ropes since they pinch down to 0.0mm. In fact, the instance I heard about was from the weight of the rope itself on a rappell chopping the rope inside the gri-gri (although I seriously doubt the validity of that claim).

Edited March 29, 2010 by layton

[underworld]

gri gri is the way to go... just learn how to move the lower jug by slightly releasing it with your thumb. maybe this is easier on the yellow death-juggers than other types, i dunno.

 

the gri gri is made to catch falls, feeds easy, is typically on your harness anyway if you're jugging (on walls, at least) and makes it a sinch to turn the system into a self belay method if you end up following part of a pitch on aid or even going free. following a traverse on aid is 'dicey' if you are using your jugs as your belay method.

 

 

[tomtom]

3. Falling on a toothed ascender is never a good idea. Fall far enough and the device will chop the rope. People use mini traxions for solo toproping, but the system is rigged so that there is little slack.

I'm not understanding this logic. People use toothed ascenders to ascend ropes all the time and you are saying this is dangerous?

I have a pair of Petzl toothed ascenders that I use all the time, so I believe they can be used safely. Jugging puts a small load (body weight) on the ascender. No problem.

 

But imagine this scenario. Let's say you're leading 120 ft up your a5 route on hooks and rurps. Your last piece blows and you rip half your gear. As soon as you stop swearing, you find yourself even with your belay, but 10 ft away because it is overhanging, and you notice that you are hanging by a string of manky rurps. Do you slap on your toothed ascenders and jug up to your highpoint? What if the string of rurps blow?

 

There was that death in Zion in 2008 where the follower was jugging the haul line, 15 ft of rope slipped through the top anchor (improper rigging), and the force on catching caused the ascender to chop the rope.

 

As discussed, jugging a fixed line with toothed ascenders is fine (no slack), but falling 15 feet is not. Many people have used a mini-traxion for top-rope soloing, but there is little slack in the system so you don't free fall very far. How much slack is too much? I don't know.

 

 

[tomtom]

Why would a tibloc be any more damaging to the rope than any other toothed rope clamp like the traxions or jumars they make? I've never quite understood that.

 

There is an important difference between the tibloc and the traxions. The traxions are spring loaded so that the teeth are pushed into the sheath (at least a little bit) at each step, and loading the devices pushed them in further.

 

With the tiblocs, the teeth are just sitting lightly on the sheath, and with a sudden loading may not bite but simply surf down the surface of the sheath. Then it will eventually bite, shock loading the system. I've had this happen to me when using tiblocs as ascenders. That's why the instructions show pushing the teeth into the sheath before weighting.

 

Tiblocs and traxions are not always interchangeable.

[underworld]

But imagine this scenario. Let's say you're leading 120 ft up your a5 route on hooks and rurps. Your last piece blows and you rip half your gear. As soon as you stop swearing, you find yourself even with your belay, but 10 ft away because it is overhanging, and you notice that you are hanging by a string of manky rurps. Do you slap on your toothed ascenders and jug up to your highpoint? What if the string of rurps blow?

 

a good reason to have the gri gri... you can rig up one ascender, a pulley and your gri gri to go frog style up to your high point and have it such that if it blows - the gri gri catches you and not your ascender

[Wallstein]

 

a good reason to have the gri gri... you can rig up one ascender, a pulley and your gri gri to go frog style up to your high point and have it such that if it blows - the gri gri catches you and not your ascender

 

You cary a gri-gri and a pulley on your harness while leading sketchy aid pitches? Hard aid is just like hard sport climbing, take all that crap off your harness and make yourself light, it makes a difference. At least thats been my experience and I've lead way to many scary aid pitches in my life.

[fenderfour]

It's important to think about the failure mode when sorting out a back-up. I've only heard about two types of failures with modern ascenders.

 

1. Dynamic fall caught by the ascender and the rope breaks

 

2. ascender twists off the rope on a traversing pitch

 

With the first failure, either ascender could cause the rope to break if a fall is taken. The backup needs to be above the devices to be effective. The second failure leaves the rope in tact, so we don't need to worry about where the backup is placed.

 

you know, just a thought.

 

 

 

RE: Wallstein - I'm screwed. I couldn't leave enough weight at the belay to make a difference. I have come to terms with the fact that I will never lead 5.13 or even 5.12, but I was really hoping to get to A4.

[dberdinka]

There was that death in Zion in 2008 where the follower was jugging the haul line, 15 ft of rope slipped through the top anchor (improper rigging), and the force on catching caused the ascender to chop the rope.

 

As discussed, jugging a fixed line with toothed ascenders is fine (no slack), but falling 15 feet is not. Many people have used a mini-traxion for top-rope soloing, but there is little slack in the system so you don't free fall very far. How much slack is too much? I don't know.

 

That fall/death occured on a static rope.

[underworld]

 

a good reason to have the gri gri... you can rig up one ascender, a pulley and your gri gri to go frog style up to your high point and have it such that if it blows - the gri gri catches you and not your ascender

 

You cary a gri-gri and a pulley on your harness while leading sketchy aid pitches? Hard aid is just like hard sport climbing, take all that crap off your harness and make yourself light, it makes a difference. At least thats been my experience and I've lead way to many scary aid pitches in my life.

 

 

 

if it's that hard and you're that light - i imagine/hope you'd have a tag line.

 

...and if you're solo-ing - good chance you've got a gri gri on you