Greek Style

[JayB]

of course, here you are, blaming government and the public sector, per usual.

 

Perhaps, some day you'll stop cherry-picking data and you'll consider the entire debt, public AND private, and then it'll become apparent that overall debt levels are very similar if not higher in more neoliberal economies.

 

When you add in pension obligations, total public debt in Greece is ~875% of GDP. Their birth rate is hovering just north of 1.3. Combine the two and you've got public spending that the public can no longer finance.

 

That's not blaming the public sector, it's simple arithmetic. The rest of the Western world isn't much better off.

 

Some states will dig themselves out with a combination of structural reforms and growth. The US might. Greece and most of Western Europe won't.

[Hugh Conway]

oh silly Communist. Company's declare bankruptcy, fuck their creditors and employees, then reconstitute to do the "good work".

 

Country's cant

 

Someone should break this news to Argentina, post haste...

 

they've endured much more than several previous employers have.

[Hugh Conway]

The US might. Greece and most of Western Europe won't.

 

Bullshit. Germany, France, Switzerland, the Nordics are much better off than the US. Germany in particular because they actually make shit that people want to buy.

 

The PIIGS and Britain, not so much. They are pretty much fucked. I guess Britain will get to keep the Elgin marbles though

[JayB]

Hopefully they're used to it by now, cause there'll be quite a bit more of the same for them* to endure in the future.

 

*The Argentinian people. Nestor and Kristina will do just fine.

[Hugh Conway]

Hopefully they're used to it by now, cause there'll be quite a bit more of the same for them* to endure in the future.

 

*The Argentinian people. Nestor and Kristina will do just fine.

 

You mean the middle class and the poor. The rich Argentine's have been sheltering their cash in Miami for a decade now - THANKS US BANKING LAWS! - and like rich US shits - love being able to go to Argentina to buy land and cheap food.

[JayB]

The US might. Greece and most of Western Europe won't.

 

Bullshit. Germany, France, Switzerland, the Nordics are much better off than the US. Germany in particular because they actually make shit that people want to buy.

 

The PIIGS and Britain, not so much. They are pretty much fucked. I guess Britain will get to keep the Elgin marbles though

 

They make nice stuff, but eventually there won't be enough of them in existence, much less on the job to foot the bill that's coming due for their grandparents.

 

The Nordics are somewhere in the 1.6-1.8 range, and Germany and Switzerland are in the sub 1.5 range. France is just below two, but they seem to have less appetite for reform than the Greeks so I personally wouldn't bet on rising productivity or structural reforms saving the day for them.

[Hugh Conway]

They make nice stuff, but eventually there won't be enough of them in existence, much less on the job to foot the bill that's coming due for their grandparents.

 

The Nordics are somewhere in the 1.6-1.8 range, and Germany and Switzerland are in the sub 1.5 range. France is just below two, but they seem to have less appetite for reform than the Greeks so I personally wouldn't bet on rising productivity or structural reforms saving the day for them.

 

I'm sure 1,000s of McDonalds workers (or Starbucks, or NoBu) selling stuff to some paper pushing investment bankers who for tax purposes reside in the Bahamas but actually live in NYC will be able to foot the bill for their drooling grandparents in the US

 

I'm not sure what the masses of uneducated, illhealthed, American workers are going to do for the US - nobody worth hiring wants to work here anymore, and nobody who's made their killing wants to keep their money here anymore

[j_b]

When you add in pension obligations, total public debt in Greece is ~875% of GDP. Their birth rate is hovering just north of 1.3. Combine the two and you've got public spending that the public can no longer finance.

 

Their low birth rate can be easily offset by immigration, of which they have an abundance even if it's the illegal kind. It'll be hard for the xenophobes and other flag wavers, but that's a good thing too.

 

That's not blaming the public sector, it's simple arithmetic. The rest of the Western world isn't much better off.

 

in other words, you are ignoring my comment about accounting for both public AND private debt because you'd have to admit that neoliberal economies have overall contracted more debt over the last 30 years.

 

Some states will dig themselves out with a combination of structural reforms and growth. The US might. Greece and most of Western Europe won't.

 

"structural reform" is euphemism for making average folks pay for the excess of unregulated capitalism while the banksters and the destroyers of industrial sectors (and jobs) enjoy their loot.

[j_b]

oh silly Communist. Company's declare bankruptcy, fuck their creditors and employees, then reconstitute to do the "good work".

 

Country's cant

 

Someone should break this news to Argentina, post haste...

 

Argentina, another victim of privatization, deregulation, globalization and bankruptcy (neoliberalism's recipe for a country financial ruin).

 

You can add Iceland to the list refusing to pay back the bankers' debt.

[prole]

Some states will dig themselves out with a combination of structural reforms and growth. The US might. Greece and most of Western Europe won't.

 

Mmmm-hmmm. I'm puttin' my moneys in the 21st century version of cotton-fields and one of them new Mystery Burgers franchises! Yeah Jay, you're right, structural adjustment of the kind necessary to "save" capitalism isn't going to fly in most of the first world, but given the retardation of America's political scene and the authoritarian streak it's been showing of late, it may just "work" here. Though it probably wouldn't be a society any of us would want to live in. Bought your Quantum Sleeper, yet?

 

[G-spotter]

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/03/evolution-of-fairness/

 

Human behaviors are often explained as hard-wired evolutionary leftovers of life on the savannah or during the Stone Age. But a study of one very modern behavior, fairness toward total strangers one will never meet again, suggests it evolved recently, and is rooted in culture rather than biology.

 

In a series of three behavioral tests given to 2,100 people in societies around the world, an innate sense of fairness dovetailed with participation in markets and major religions. Generally speaking, these use social norms and informal institutions to promote fairness, which allow societies to become larger and more complex.

 

[Jim]

Some states will dig themselves out with a combination of structural reforms and growth. The US might. Greece and most of Western Europe won't.

 

This is pretty good. Just like we did with the S&Ls, Enron, the airlines after 911, Bear Stearns, Freddie and Fannie, AIG, the auto indurstry, TARP, Citigroup, and Bank of America. Going back further we have Continental Bank of Illonis in '84 ($9.5 billion), Chrysler ($4 billion), Franklin National Bank '74 (7.8 bilion), Lockeed '71 ($1.4 billion)--- do I detect a "structural reform" pattern here. Indeed.

 

The repeated pattern is public risk and private profit - all fed by cash through the political system to just tinker on the outside. Just keep shovelling the cash to the masters of the universe, then wail about undeserving welfare queens getting an extra $50 a month. It would be funny if not so tragic.

[JayB]

Some states will dig themselves out with a combination of structural reforms and growth. The US might. Greece and most of Western Europe won't.

 

This pretty good. Just like we did with the S&Ls, Enron, the airlines after 911, Bear Stearns, Freddie and Fannie, AIG, the auto indurstry, TARP, Citigroup, and Bank of America. Going back further we have Continental Bank of Illonis in '84 ($9.5 billion), Chrysler ($4 billion), Franklin National Bank '74 (7.8 bilion), Lockeed '71 ($1.4 billion)--- do I detect a "structural reform" pattern here. Indeed.

 

The repeated pattern is public risk and private profit - all fed by cash through the political system to just tinker on the outside. Just keep shovelling the cash to the masters of the universe, then wail about undeserving welfare queens getting an extra $50 a month. It would be funny if not so tragic.

 

Love the zeal there Jim, but spare a moment to consult an actuarial table or two that lays out the magnitude of unfunded entitlement spending at the state and Federal level and the price of the distortions of the nation's political economy you laid out above will seem trivial by comparison.

 

 

 

 

[JayB]

Some states will dig themselves out with a combination of structural reforms and growth. The US might. Greece and most of Western Europe won't.

 

Mmmm-hmmm. I'm puttin' my moneys in the 21st century version of cotton-fields and one of them new Mystery Burgers franchises! Yeah Jay, you're right, structural adjustment of the kind necessary to "save" capitalism isn't going to fly in most of the first world, but given the retardation of America's political scene and the authoritarian streak it's been showing of late, it may just "work" here. Though it probably wouldn't be a society any of us would want to live in. Bought your Quantum Sleeper, yet?

 

 

Well - you seem to like it well enough to stay despite the continuous and histrionic wails of protest to the contrary, so it must be better than all of the alternatives available to you. I suspect there'll be lots of other folks in the same boat.

 

I'd think you'd be rushing at the chance to emmigrate to Greece. They need doughty young lads like yourself to sustain the noble enterprise they've got going over there.

 

 

[j_b]

in other words, you are ignoring my comment about accounting for both public AND private debt because you'd have to admit that neoliberal economies have overall contracted more debt over the last 30 years.

 

 

[prole]

Some states will dig themselves out with a combination of structural reforms and growth. The US might. Greece and most of Western Europe won't.

 

Mmmm-hmmm. I'm puttin' my moneys in the 21st century version of cotton-fields and one of them new Mystery Burgers franchises! Yeah Jay, you're right, structural adjustment of the kind necessary to "save" capitalism isn't going to fly in most of the first world, but given the retardation of America's political scene and the authoritarian streak it's been showing of late, it may just "work" here. Though it probably wouldn't be a society any of us would want to live in. Bought your Quantum Sleeper, yet?

 

 

Well - you seem to like it well enough to stay despite the continuous and histrionic wails of protest to the contrary, so it must be better than all of the alternatives available to you. I suspect there'll be lots of other folks in the same boat.

 

Could you possibly be as deluded as these statements make you sound? Your "rational actors" and "utility maximizing decision making" have made a prison of your mind. At any rate, the "love it or leave it" recommendation holds for you as well. I'm sure they could use another enlightened despot inside the walls of one of the world's Free Trade Zone paradises.

[j_b]

Well - you seem to like it well enough to stay despite ...

I'd think you'd be rushing at the chance to emmigrate to Greece. They need doughty young lads like yourself to sustain the noble enterprise they've got going over there.

 

Despite Somalia being the closest to the model you continually advocate I don't see you wanting to move there.

[tvashtarkatena]

 

Just thought I'd get in on the new fad while its hawt.

[j_b]

it's not a new fad. I told JayB years ago that he never acknowledged what he couldn't answer.

[Jim]

Some states will dig themselves out with a combination of structural reforms and growth. The US might. Greece and most of Western Europe won't.

 

This pretty good. Just like we did with the S&Ls, Enron, the airlines after 911, Bear Stearns, Freddie and Fannie, AIG, the auto indurstry, TARP, Citigroup, and Bank of America. Going back further we have Continental Bank of Illonis in '84 ($9.5 billion), Chrysler ($4 billion), Franklin National Bank '74 (7.8 bilion), Lockeed '71 ($1.4 billion)--- do I detect a "structural reform" pattern here. Indeed.

 

The repeated pattern is public risk and private profit - all fed by cash through the political system to just tinker on the outside. Just keep shovelling the cash to the masters of the universe, then wail about undeserving welfare queens getting an extra $50 a month. It would be funny if not so tragic.

 

Love the zeal there Jim, but spare a moment to consult an actuarial table or two that lays out the magnitude of unfunded entitlement spending at the state and Federal level and the price of the distortions of the nation's political economy you laid out above will seem trivial by comparison.

 

Nice dodge. Now try and address the issues raised.

[j_b]

Love the zeal there Jim, but spare a moment to consult an actuarial table or two that lays out the magnitude of unfunded entitlement spending at the state and Federal level and the price of the distortions of the nation's political economy you laid out above will seem trivial by comparison.

 

uh-hoh! I can already feel JayB cherry-picking yet another unusual admin assistant compensation package to show that people are overpaid.

 

No accounting for how gross rise in inequalities to levels unseen since the age of the robber barons distort the economy, of course.

[tvashtarkatena]

it's not a new fad. I told JayB years ago that he never acknowledged what he couldn't answer.

 

That makes two of us LOL. Could it be that other aspects of life get in the way of this vital discourse?

Edited March 19, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[j_b]

he has plenty of time to cherry pick data but would have none to answer charges that he cherry-picks data? come on.

[JayB]

Some states will dig themselves out with a combination of structural reforms and growth. The US might. Greece and most of Western Europe won't.

 

Mmmm-hmmm. I'm puttin' my moneys in the 21st century version of cotton-fields and one of them new Mystery Burgers franchises! Yeah Jay, you're right, structural adjustment of the kind necessary to "save" capitalism isn't going to fly in most of the first world, but given the retardation of America's political scene and the authoritarian streak it's been showing of late, it may just "work" here. Though it probably wouldn't be a society any of us would want to live in. Bought your Quantum Sleeper, yet?

 

 

Well - you seem to like it well enough to stay despite the continuous and histrionic wails of protest to the contrary, so it must be better than all of the alternatives available to you. I suspect there'll be lots of other folks in the same boat.

 

Could you possibly be as deluded as these statements make you sound? Your "rational actors" and "utility maximizing decision making" have made a prison of your mind. At any rate, the "love it or leave it" recommendation holds for you as well. I'm sure they could use another enlightened despot inside the walls of one of the world's Free Trade Zone paradises.

 

What's delusional about noting the incongruity between your rhetoric and your actions?

 

If you want more political and economic liberty, there's really no place to escape to at the moment. If you want less - your options are unlimited. Like Greece, for example.

[JayB]

Some states will dig themselves out with a combination of structural reforms and growth. The US might. Greece and most of Western Europe won't.

 

This pretty good. Just like we did with the S&Ls, Enron, the airlines after 911, Bear Stearns, Freddie and Fannie, AIG, the auto indurstry, TARP, Citigroup, and Bank of America. Going back further we have Continental Bank of Illonis in '84 ($9.5 billion), Chrysler ($4 billion), Franklin National Bank '74 (7.8 bilion), Lockeed '71 ($1.4 billion)--- do I detect a "structural reform" pattern here. Indeed.

 

The repeated pattern is public risk and private profit - all fed by cash through the political system to just tinker on the outside. Just keep shovelling the cash to the masters of the universe, then wail about undeserving welfare queens getting an extra $50 a month. It would be funny if not so tragic.

 

Love the zeal there Jim, but spare a moment to consult an actuarial table or two that lays out the magnitude of unfunded entitlement spending at the state and Federal level and the price of the distortions of the nation's political economy you laid out above will seem trivial by comparison.

 

Nice dodge. Now try and address the issues raised.

 

Fannie and Freddie aren't examples of privatized profits and socialized risk? Farm subsidies, tarriffs, subsidies, etc, etc, aren't examples of the political system distorting public finances for private advantage? Who's the one with the selective outrage here again?