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marc_leclerc

Lead Bolting Ethics....

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Kinda what I was thinkin, best style would be led on sight with natural (or no) pro. Then led onsight with bolts hand drilled or TR'd and headpoint. By the time you get to the fourth best option just make sure its done well.

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I think the queestion of natural pro was not ask because ALL THE GOOD CRACKS ARE ALREADY DONE That is why climbing has moved to bolted sport, as with most sports climbing had to evolve, who would have thunk bouldering would be so popular now, real climbers want new stone and new routes think how clogged up the classic cracks would be if there were not any sport climbing to spread thing out, just try getting on a good crack on the weekend …you better get up early.

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In the end, Its with yourself that you have to live.

Why would you worry about what others think ?

 

Because of what You leave behind others will judge you as a Climber, be it good or bad.

 

Be able to stand up for your actions. and dont let others tell You how to act or what to do.

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In the end, Its with yourself that you have to live.

Why would you worry about what others think ?

 

Because of what You leave behind others will judge you as a Climber, be it good or bad.

 

Be able to stand up for your actions. and dont let others tell You how to act or what to do.

 

Now that says it all ...good post Bro :tup:

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In the end, Its with yourself that you have to live.

Why would you worry about what others think ?

 

tell that to marc, since he was the one soliciting advice about climbing something in a "pure style".

 

 

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So I found a real gem of a slab climb at my local crag.

It's only 15 or 20 meters tall, but its a hell of a line, with tiny nubbins, shallow mono pockets, deperate smears and micro edges

 

and your point is that, based on his description (which obviously does not tell anyone enough about potential creative pro being available) you will rush to judgement about the need for bolts?

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The style of the FA is nothing compared to what is left, that is if it’s not all about you and your ego.

 

i am beginning to think that climbing isn't much of a creative endeavor for you....

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So I found a real gem of a slab climb at my local crag.

It's only 15 or 20 meters tall, but its a hell of a line, with tiny nubbins, shallow mono pockets, deperate smears and micro edges

 

and your point is that, based on his description (which obviously does not tell anyone enough about potential creative pro being available) you will rush to judgement about the need for bolts?

 

you aren't getting in gear on this one

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It seems like you haven't given everybody enough information because your feedback is all over the map - "a la hard grit (headpointing no pro)", "Top down is best" etc...

 

Responses were pretty quick to assume a bop gun (motorized drill) - only one responder even mentioned a Hand Drill and Hammer. If your talking ground up - on lead at a climbing area that does allow bolts - is the rock suitable for a Hand Drill?

 

You mention other developers putting up climbs near yours, Did they develop ground-up?, Did they hook? ...What did they do? Did they use motorized drills? Did they use hand drills? On hooks? Did they find stances? Its MUCH more important what other developers who have already established lines at your area think than what random people on CascadeClimbers.com think you should do.

 

If you don't know the answers to to how others have developed routes at your project crag you shouldn't be bolting there because you haven't put enough research in the area to be bolting. If the area has been developed with other developers finding stances to hand drill bolts, maybe your not the one to develop it if they can find stances that you may not.

 

Not trying to be a hater but I'm a big believer that the route should be developed by the right person for the job, not brought down to the level of a would be ascentist. What if an older generation had chipped all of our current hardest?

 

With bolts, its all subjective, but when you use the word "pure" (which I don't think bolts can be at all) I think you have to determine whether yourself or someone else has the physical tools to apply the best ethics, styles, and tactics. Would someone else be able to apply a hand drill where you have to use a motorized? Would someone else find stances where you have to hook?

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you aren't getting in gear on this one

 

never say never.

 

all i'm suggesting is that before he commit drill to rock, consider the possibilities. be creative. really spend some time thinking about other options. that's all. especially if it's a "gem" of a climb. gems have been absolutely ruined at index and other places because of overzealous bolters

 

after all, he calls himself a traddie! :laf:

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So I found a real gem of a slab climb at my local crag. It's only 15 or 20 meters tall, but its a hell of a line, with tiny nubbins, shallow mono pockets, deperate smears and micro edges on a steep (75 degree-ish) slab. I want to bolt this route on lead to make it the purest route it can possibly be, as I don't like rap bolting sport climbs very much. I know I am going to have to drill mostly from hooks as there are almost no good stances most of the way.

 

But what is considered good or bad lead bolting ethics? I know this will be unbelievably hard to climb with an electric drill on me (guessed grade is mid 5.12) Is it totally cheating to use a hual line to pull the kit up to me when I am ready to drill and lower the kit down as I start climbing again? Just what is considered the norm for lead bolting ethics and what is considered a bad ethic? I've never bolted on lead before...

I would think a better sequence would be this:

FIRST you need to ask the people who have been climbing there for 40 years why they haven't bolted it before. Do that before you make a mistake. They may say, do it dude! Awsum idea! Or they might not. They may say "that was done with gear 20 years ago or we left that as a toprope on purpose"! Their opinion and thoughts should weight X 10 to what any anonymous person on the internet, who doesn't even know where this crag is, says in my opinion. What YOU want isn't really the issue as much as what everyone else thinks and wants. First consider all those who have been actively climbing there for years and who love that area (just talk it over with them!), then consider the next 30 years of climbers who will follow, then consider yourself last - in that order.

 

Good luck with your project Marc!

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[FIRST you need to ask the people who have been climbing there for 40 years why they haven't bolted it before. Do that before you make a mistake. They may say, do it dude! Awsum idea! Or they might not. Their opinion and thoughts should weight X 10 to what any anonymous person on the internet, who doesn't even know where this crag is, says in my opinion. What YOU want isn't really the issue as much as what everyone else thinks and wants. First consider them (talk it over with them!), then consider the next 30 years of climbers who will follow, then consider yourself last - in that order.

 

Good luck with your project

 

pretty good advice, i'd say.

 

i would add one caveat: even if you get a ringing endorsement for bolting the thing, at least consider alternatives.

 

this might be your chance to be a rebel, a trend-setter. look at what sonnie is doing in your neck of the woods.

 

and remember: you don't have to dumb it down for the masses. climbing is an equal opportunity game: anyone can step up to the plate. but part of what makes it fun is the challenge. you can potentially offer up a challenge that will deeply inspire someone in the future (simply bolting up another slab will probably never do this).

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Hell just do what most inspires you...climbing just aint that complicated and it's no more of an "art" than taking out the trash. If your route is truly new and has no history then tradition shouldn't matter, although you might decide getting along is better than swimming against the stream.....

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wow cramer, unexpected! i guess i now know what climbing has been for you all these years....

 

coulda saved yourself a lot of trouble by staying home and taking care of the domestic duties, like taking out the trash.

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So I found a real gem of a slab climb at my local crag. It's only 15 or 20 meters tall, but its a hell of a line, with tiny nubbins, shallow mono pockets, deperate smears and micro edges on a steep (75 degree-ish) slab. I want to bolt this route on lead to make it the purest route it can possibly be, as I don't like rap bolting sport climbs very much. I know I am going to have to drill mostly from hooks as there are almost no good stances most of the way.

 

But what is considered good or bad lead bolting ethics? I know this will be unbelievably hard to climb with an electric drill on me (guessed grade is mid 5.12) Is it totally cheating to use a hual line to pull the kit up to me when I am ready to drill and lower the kit down as I start climbing again? Just what is considered the norm for lead bolting ethics and what is considered a bad ethic? I've never bolted on lead before...

 

FIRST you need to ask the people who have been climbing there for 40 years why they haven't bolted it before. Do that before you make a mistake. They may say, do it dude! Awsum idea! Or they might not. They may say "that was done with gear 20 years ago or we left that as a toprope on purpose"! Their opinion and thoughts should weight X 10 to what any anonymous person on the internet, who doesn't even know where this crag is, says in my opinion. What YOU want isn't really the issue as much as what everyone else thinks and wants. First consider all those who have been actively climbing there for years and who love that area (just talk it over with them!), then consider the next 30 years of climbers who will follow, then consider yourself last - in that order.

 

Good luck with your project Marc!

 

nobody's been climbing there 40 years dumbass. first routes went up in 93

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come on, kimmo, g-splutter is, as always, trying to keep us focused on the important details here. after all, there is an enormous difference re: bill's point if climbers have been active there for 40 years or only 38. it would change everything, don't you see?

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point being, for those too dumb to otherwise see it, this is a new, modern crag developed with modern ethics and in some cases with chainsaws and shovels

 

there are no old forgotten routes, although some of the previously developed ones have grown over everyone still knows where they are

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not necessarily dumb but certainly uninformed. no one has yet mentioned the name of this crag where the previously undiscovered "gem" has been found so no one is in a position to know the crag's history except those such as yourself who are already in possession of said information. therefore, for you to call billcoe a "dumbass" merely demonstrates that you are the real dumbass here.

 

in other words, point being, for those too dumb to otherwise see it, why don't you surprise the rest of us by taking a stab at civil discourse for a change?

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point being, for those too dumb to otherwise see it, this is a new, modern crag developed with modern ethics and in some cases with chainsaws and shovels

 

there are no old forgotten routes, although some of the previously developed ones have grown over everyone still knows where they are

 

modern crag with modern ethics. that's kinda funny! are you suggesting marc enslave himself to this "modern crag" with its "modern ethics"?

 

sounds kinda like dwayner. but in reverse.

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Why bolt it at all?

 

Just drop your pad at the bottom and treat it as a highball boulder problem.

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How much drilling have you done Marc? 12a slab might not be a good place to learn how to bolt on lead especially since you think it will require hooks.

 

Does it look like there are lots of good hook placements that won't break off or at least for the first 2 bolts?

 

You might be the only person to ever climb it. Is it worth the investment and risk?

 

If you want to go Bachar style then I believe that the procedure is to lower after every hook placed bolt and pull the rope so that the top is only reached by free climbing on the last push.

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Hell just do what most inspires you...climbing just aint that complicated and it's no more of an "art" than taking out the trash.

 

actually, climbing can be quite "complicated"; that's part of its appeal to me.

 

as far as it being an "art"....i kinda think it is what we make of it. marc could make it routine, like "taking out the trash", or he could put some imagination into it, and have it be something a little more. i guess i kinda feel badly for you that something you've done for so long is nothing more than "taking out the trash" (although even taking out the trash has the potential for being art).

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