genepires Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 So I got a dartwin some three or four years ago and I was wondering about something with it. It has two frontpoints and one is longer than the other. Intuition would say that I want the longer point to be the inside point. But according to the photo from their website, it looks like the longer point is on the outside of the boot. Being a rule abiding citizen, I have always worn it that way. But it just doesn't seem right. Maybe my old school ways can't see the logic behind it. So my question is to you masters of ice is, -Should I arrange my crampons with the larger point inside or out? -Is there a reason for this outside arrangement? -PLus the way the base plate is all wierd, does that matter for usage as far as which is left and right boot? Probably not. -Why do I care if the petzl police revoke my crampon license for improper use? thanks for your thoughtful and/or smart ass answers. gene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montypiton Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 I can think of a couple of rationales, but these may only demonstrate how irrationally I think -- -I know that I tend to wear out the inside frontpoint faster, so maybe the makers are anticipating that pattern? -Most of us tend to splay our feet slightly outward which would mean more weight focused over inside point... Honestly, if I found myself in this situation, I'd probably try climbing on them both ways, and choose whichever configuration seems to work better for me... Good Luck! -Curt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted January 17, 2010 Share Posted January 17, 2010 Good question! First might help to know that their really are some smart people in the design department at Petzl. They don't leave anything on the table. Which is why most everyone has been copying them. Just don't get me started on the freak'in side-locks! Yes, there is a right and a left And no they were never made to be reversable. While possible, if you did choose to use them that way I would worry about breaking them as the design of the forfoot was never intended to be stressed that way. The idea with the Dart and Dartwin from the get go was the lightest weight and most technical crampon possible. Light weight by design generally means a certain lack of durability. I have found that true in both Petzl Dart designs but a worthwhile trade off for me. The longer outside point is made that way because we all climb with splayed feet. If you are looking for the best stability with a vertical point crampon (not the best on stability in all around mtn conditions) and not a compromised monopoint what Petzl did makes perfect sense. They already had the Dart so way would they compromise on a second design? When it comes to climbing hard mixed in Dartwins, the shorter inside front point has some distinct advantages over two long front points that you would want on neve' or even water ice. It is a very technical crampon designed specifically for hard, modern mixed on big mtn routes. What many didn't realise originally (myself included) was the Dartwin was supposed to be as technically specific as the Nomic obviously is. Awesome 'pons if used in the right place imo. Front points might look a little weird but they will climb great. Seriously, I'd be happy to buy them from you Gene if they are in decent shape and the price is right. Some good climbers using them on hard routes. Dartwins on n. Butt of Hunter from Colin Haley's web site (Colin's photo) Bjørn-Eivind's left foot in Dartwins while leading leading "The Vision" should clarifiy what I couldn't. Dartwin again with Ueli Steck the Grand Jorasses..Jon Griffith photo The Petzl police and your buddies will only laugh at you for having your 'pons on backwards I use to have that happen a lot in kindergarden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted January 18, 2010 Author Share Posted January 18, 2010 I never had a doubt as to their design, just my ability to put it back together properly after messing with it and putting it back on backwards. thanks, now i gotta change it back to the way it was. good fun for a rainy weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted January 18, 2010 Share Posted January 18, 2010 Send them to me and I'll try my hardest....just not sure they can ever be fixed or put back together now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted January 18, 2010 Author Share Posted January 18, 2010 ok, I'll just throw them away. not. don't you already own a dozen pairs of everything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted January 18, 2010 Share Posted January 18, 2010 Naw, I might have, but I keep giving them away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montypiton Posted January 18, 2010 Share Posted January 18, 2010 (edited) damn - talk about hoof in mouth - I was sure I read that the inside point was longer... Dane is right, with a slightly splayed foot, the outside point has to be longer just to reach the ice and penetrate -- so there I was trying to figger out reasons why they might make the inside point longer?!? sorry about that... at least now you all understand why I've switched to monopoints: 1) I don't have to mess with issues like this; and 2) makes a pair of points last twice as long if I use them one at a time, and I'm notoriously cheap Edited January 18, 2010 by montypiton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted January 18, 2010 Share Posted January 18, 2010 No worries Curt.....should have seen what I went through to have the design explained to me. Just so happy Gene inabled me to share My only dissappointment with Dartwins was wanting the pairs I gave away, back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted January 18, 2010 Share Posted January 18, 2010 Gene, i've had my M10s set up with offset frontpoints for about 6 years, longer point inside under big toe, after trying a number of different orienations. I really like that orientation, especially with Scarpa Freneys which have the asymmetric last anyway. So you might want to switch the dartwins around between feet and see which way feels better for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted January 18, 2010 Share Posted January 18, 2010 Designed to adapt to different styles and uses. Cookie cutter frames are built stout and heavy to allow that kind of use and long term durability. Replaceable front points for years of hard use. 1065g Designed for a specific use. Built on a level of durability to accomadate that use. Made as a disposable crampon once the front points have been worn down. 860g Dru isn't the only one to like that set up, longer front point under the toe on a Grivel Rambo. 1275g Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Talked with the actual designer of the Dartwin this weekend. When asked his thoughts on the shorter inside front point and his design work, he looked at me like I was completely ignorant (he was close obviously )and said "it is for your splayed feet of course" and never missed a beat as he continued telling about new tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted January 25, 2010 Author Share Posted January 25, 2010 can we assume he was french? If so, he lives up to the french stereotype. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScaredSilly Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 I would not quite say that the Darts are disposable. You can actually buy replacements for the front section for about 1/2 the original cost. Of course by that time the complete crampon is probably shot anyways. You can also buy the dart or dartwins and put them on the heal section. So if you are really cheap you can have 1 1/2 pairs and go bothways. Gene, I would not be embarrassed about putting them back together bassackwards. That is nothing compared to a friend who BITD got a pair skins for his skis and said they were terrible that is until he realize he had put the tip and tail kit on the wrong ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted January 26, 2010 Author Share Posted January 26, 2010 and be the laugh of the entire french nation? no way. If frenchie says do this way, then I must obey the frenchie master. your friend and his skin problem sounds like something I would do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 can we assume he was french? If so, he lives up to the french stereotype. He was indeed French and a true gentleman. Besides being a hard ass alpine climber with an obvious way with the women So yes, he did live up to the French sterotype. But then the French have enough fashion sense not to wear their 'pons on the wrong feet. Disposable? Yes, they are disposable...which is why they sell replacement parts... Some companies sell front points....Petzl sells you half a crampon. I love the design but have to question the rational. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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