Pay It Forward?

[Dane]

With all the positive responses a couple of fun things happened yesterday.

 

First one is we have a centrally located drop off point in Seattle @ KOMO TV in Fisher Plaza.

 

One of my favorite climbing partners, Tracy Vedder, will accept donations for "Pay it Forward" climbing gear. I'll pick it up, sort it, clean up and rehab stuff that needs it (sticky biners and such) and send it on to those that can use it. Just box what ever you have up and put Tracy's name on it and you can drop it at the concierge desk in the lobby @ Fisher Plaza. Tracy is a investigative reporter for KOMO TV.

 

 

 

New on Santa's list?

 

I heard from an assistant guide that was injuried while working this summer. He's doing OK but working on his rehab. One of the few things he can physically do right now is aid climb. He is looking for maybe 10-15 rivet hangers, both the cinch type and the hanger type, a variety of hooks (skyhook, talon, cam hook, etc), maybe some heads, and a functional hammer if anyone has something they can spare.

 

If you have anything you want to donate and need to ship it you can mail/UPS or drop it off @ the address below. If you are close send me a PM and I'll come pick what ever up.

 

Dane Burns

700 NW Gilman Blvd #116

Issaquah WA 98027

 

 

[marc_leclerc]

"Pssst, kid, over here. Heh, here you go, try this, the first cam is free..."

 

Marc, good on ya for working for it, but I know you've received at least a tiny bit of ancient funk from this sort of thinking.

 

Yeah, and it really does help a lot... I remember thinking I wasnt going to be able to climb for a while because of some lost gear after an epic, but Off-White, after reading my post sent my two ridgid stem cams that helped a lot. I have used the cams to climb stuff like the 'Grand Wall' and work some projects near my place... I even fell on one on 'Zombie Roof' this summer.... so yeah, this kind of thing really is appreciated by us young climbers who don't have the rich 'sport' parents paying for courses, gear and driving them around to their next climb

[LostCamKenny]

Tracy Vedder

any relation to eddie?

[fenderfour]

I get to struggle at getting better climbing because I do not have the time to do it full time. Unfortunately, my boss just won't give be enough time off to be able to crush 5.13.

 

Those who have the time frequently struggle with the monetary means to support their habit. Fortunately for them, they frequently work as guides or at gear shops where they can get pro deals helping with their difficulty.

 

I'm just a cynical old bastard. Adversity breeds ingenuity and perseverance. Both are very important in climbing.

[Dane]

"Fortunately for them, they frequently work as guides or at gear shops where they can get pro deals helping with their difficulty."

 

Funny that should come up....and you'd think that would make sense.

 

My formal background is in Outdoor Recreation. A good many educational instituitions actually offer BA and Masters degrees in Outdoor Recreation. AMGA and the UIAGM offer guide's certification programs. But being paid well as a young guide (or old guide for that matter) is a wife's tale. Just aint so. Yes you get to work outside but the hours are long and most wouldn't be making even minimum wage if you went by the hours put in. A fully certified guide in the right location can make a livable wage. Two busiest guiding areas in the world by number of days out? Chamonix and Rainier for heaven's sake. You can make a fair guess how the rest of them are doing.

 

Having been in that situation (guideing full time at a high level internationally)...and getting pro deals/discounts at the same time it is easy for me to say that the difference between what you get paid in the "normal" work force and what you get paid while guiding or working in the outdoor field still doesn't put the "pro" ahead of his civilian counterpart.

 

Add to the fact the "pro" will be going through a lot more gear just because they are actually using it everyday and you can easily imagine just how far behind the curve you can get.

 

Pro deals help those involved directly with the outdoor industry but no where near enough to keep many of the pros afloat and in the field working.

 

You never see store employees short on gear. Pro deals abound! They get at least minimum wage and have to work a schedule generally. Gear lasts longer and is used less.

 

I've known many, many guides over the years. Most work a few years off and on in the industry, all the while working outside in the public sector to make ends meet and then end up leaving guiding because they are simply tired of having to live a dirt bag life style in an industry that finds little monetary value in their skills and services. It is a realization most have to come to and then make a decision on what to do next as a career.

 

[lancegranite]

It's fine to give somebody free gear, but it's better to help them earn the gear through work or service to others.

I bought my first rack with money earned gutting fish in Alaska.

I still have some of that first rack and it reminds me of 20 hour days covered in blood and fish scales.

 

Having gave/ bought gear& clothing to hopeful upstarts in the past my experiences have been less than positive.

When visiting one day I discovered the free rope and rack in a tote on the front porch half filled with rain water and leaves I vowed never to give gear away again.

The next recipient will be invited over to help me around the house or remove snow from my driveway.

 

This said, I have a job offer for a person in the Leavenworth area. You want free gear? I have a driveway that will need snow removal this winter.

PM me here and I will be happy to develop a trade with you to get you out on the rock or the snow sporting the gear you want.

New gear up front for you for help later in the winter when I will need it.

 

Gotta go, time to go to work in -22F weather to earn the money I'm going to spend to buy your free gear.

Today's weather in Prudohe Bay Alaska

PS: A young person is a 15 year old, not a guy who could be the father of a 15 year old. That person is commonly known as grown man.

 

 

[ASmith]

Dane,

 

I'll support you 100%. Let me know how I can help as well. I think the hardest part of this would be to correctly identify the receiptants but I also know that you will do this as best as can be done. I would like to suggest a post dedicated to the precipitants and their thoughts as well so that others can see for themselves the difference, even a small amount voluntarism or giving can make in not only their lives but in the lives of others as well.

 

 

Dane, I would encourage you and all others not to let the "small thinkers" of the world dampen the spirt and add more negatively to the world. There will always be those who always want to dump on anything and everyone regardless of their own pitiful lives as there feeling sorry for the decisions they made and the situations that they caused for themselves. Garbage in = Garbage out. The universe has a way to assure that everyone receives in proportion to what they give-out as a value to others, it is a universal law and guaranteed to happen. I have seen it time and time again.

 

It so often seems those same sorry folks look for and expect favor but never offer anything of themselves to others, but, in amazement, they expect it in return.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I understand the work ethic, working for and deserving what you get.

 

Not the idea behind "paying it forward".

 

"Yeah, well, I guess he had it comin'."

"We all got it comin', kid."

 

Thought it might be nice to actually give a little bit back....just 'cus we can.

 

Tis the season, no?

Edited November 20, 2009 by ASmith

[thedirtbag]

Dane,

Awesome thought. How long will the donation box be open for? I'm away, but I know it takes a bunch of ovals to aid climb? Oh man, I was wondering if those things would ever get used again. I needed them so badly when I was 23.

 

It's such an awesome sentiment, and I just spent the last ten minutes thinking through all the people that offered me a decent meal, or bought me a beer, or let me stay at their house, or loaned me a rope (seriously, I probably would have eaten shit soloing in Western OZ if a friend didn't pass along a rope). I remember I was at the bar near the base of the dirt road to the Needles(Cali version), pumping quarters into the pool table while it was starting to snow, and this guy walks up with the coldest, best pitcher of Sierra Nevada, puts it down on the table and before he turns to leave he says "That's for trying hard." The funny thing, he must have seen me that day, because I had been trying hard, I had been pushing it, way out there on the sharp end. The guy just walked out. I think his name was mark.

 

That made me feel like part of the community. Dare I say it -- but maybe all the haters out there were never really at the heart of the community in the first place. They missed out. They are missing out.

 

Thanks Dane.

[rocketparrotlet]

This is a wonderful idea. I really appreciate seeing people with such a charitable attitude! I am 16, and a program like this helped me a lot last year to get a scholarship to the Mountaineers. My friend, the same age, has just gotten another scholarship only a few days ago.

 

If you guys ever set up a box of this stuff, Josh could use some gear. Money is hard to come by for him, almost every piece of gear he owns was given to him by someone. I might be in need of a little gear too, but not as much as Josh is.

 

As an earlier poster said though, the thing I am looking for most right now is some advice. There are some things a formal class can't teach you, and I'm trying to figure them out still, but I'm coming along! When this year started, I had only climbed outdoors twice on toprope and I had no idea what I was doing. Now, I am able to confidently climb many basic routes, and every person I climb with teaches me something new and useful. If there's anyone who is generous to pass on their knowledge and maybe a little gear, I'll work for it.

 

-Mark

[fenderfour]

I didn't mean to imply that guides make a lot of money. I think we all know that is not the case. I was pointing out that there is a trade off. Choose what is more important to you and get on with it.

 

 

[jmace]

Dane, I would encourage you and all others not to let the "small thinkers" of the world dampen the spirt and add more negatively to the world.

 

You think encouraging youth to work for their money instead of waiting for free handouts is negatively adding to the world?

 

Its cause of that that every kid out there refuses to work for their money.

 

You want cams go get a fucking job like every other person out there, its called reality.

[marc_leclerc]

If there's anyone who is generous to pass on their knowledge and maybe a little gear, I'll work for it.

 

-Mark

 

I'm only a year older than you.. but I would go climbing with you.. and might be able to teach you some stuff. Whats your experience like?

[RuMR]

Dane, I would encourage you and all others not to let the "small thinkers" of the world dampen the spirt and add more negatively to the world.

 

You think encouraging youth to work for their money instead of waiting for free handouts is negatively adding to the world?

 

Its cause of that that every kid out there refuses to work for their money.

 

You want cams go get a fucking job like every other person out there, its called reality.

this has worked for me...

[rocketparrotlet]

Dane, I would encourage you and all others not to let the "small thinkers" of the world dampen the spirt and add more negatively to the world.

 

You think encouraging youth to work for their money instead of waiting for free handouts is negatively adding to the world?

 

Its cause of that that every kid out there refuses to work for their money.

 

You want cams go get a fucking job like every other person out there, its called reality.

 

I just spent $200 for 3 cams after hours of comparison shopping and a month and a half of paper route money. Don't make blanket statements like "every kid out there refuses to work for their money".

 

If there's anyone who is generous to pass on their knowledge and maybe a little gear, I'll work for it.

 

I'm only a year older than you.. but I would go climbing with you.. and might be able to teach you some stuff. Whats your experience like?

 

Awesome! I'm in Everett, are we close enough to make it work? (I don't have a car, but I might be able to meet at a park and ride half an hour away at most...)

 

I would love to learn some stuff and go climbing. I know my basic skills like belaying, rappelling, following, cleaning, ice axe arrest, glacier travel, and I can lead to 5.7. I don't know ice/2-tool climbing, but I'd love to learn! I have crampons, boots, and an axe, but no ice tools. Scrambling's fun too!

 

-Mark

[ASmith]

Dane, I would encourage you and all others not to let the "small thinkers" of the world dampen the spirt and add more negatively to the world.

 

You think encouraging youth to work for their money instead of waiting for free handouts is negatively adding to the world?

 

Its cause of that that every kid out there refuses to work for their money.

 

You want cams go get a fucking job like every other person out there, its called reality.

 

 

Where did I say anything about encouraging youth not to work in my post?

 

What I was commenting about is people who make posts and statements like this do not add anything positive to the world.

 

"Every Kid" ???? Pretty broad general and ridiculous statement isn't? Without taking any time to prove how ignorant your comments are, Quit embarrassing yourself.

Edited November 20, 2009 by ASmith

[G-spotter]

 

I just spent $200 for 3 cams

 

-Mark

 

You could've bought a full rack of nuts, hexes and Tricams for that much money. At a 5.7 level you'll get much more use out of owning a large number of passive pieces instead of a few cams

[Dane]

You could've bought a full rack of nuts, hexes and Tricams for that much money. At a 5.7 level you'll get much more use out of owning a large number of passive pieces instead of a few cams

 

Really good advice is sometimes hard to swallow if you don't like what you hear.

Drew just offered you some really good advice, take head.

 

FYI I own several full racks of cams. After a serious injury and lots of rehab guess what I started leading again with 1st time out? That is right, hexs and stoppers. And I really enjoyed it btw, lighter rack and you have to think more as you climb. No clip and go like the gym. And you can generally buy them cheap on Ebay.

 

[rocketparrotlet]

I already have stoppers 3-13, hexes 7-11, and tricams 0.5-2.0. I learned to lead on passive, and I'm best at nuts by the way, moving on to cams. Splitters (and Index in general) can be hard to protect in places otherwise.

 

I originally thought it would be wiser to just go entirely passive, but almost everybody I have talked to (and experience as well) tells me cams definitely have their place.

 

-Mark

[marc_leclerc]

I already have stoppers 3-13, hexes 7-11, and tricams 0.5-2.0. I learned to lead on passive, and I'm best at nuts by the way, moving on to cams. Splitters (and Index in general) can be hard to protect in places otherwise.

 

I originally thought it would be wiser to just go entirely passive, but almost everybody I have talked to (and experience as well) tells me cams definitely have their place.

 

-Mark

 

I bought a full Rock Empire set of cams for like 400 bucks a couple years ago.. 8 cams total i think. Not as good as BD but i still plug them in on hard routes and fall on them....

[Dane]

Don't let any of us fool you. Cams do have their place. Some crack climbs (although few in comparison) wouldn't be protectable without them.

 

Drew's and my point was you can climb a lot and climb hard...with less financial outlay with nuts and hexs.

 

But cams are mandatory at some point and can offer solid protection where almost nothing else will.

 

 

[rocketparrotlet]

I already have stoppers 3-13, hexes 7-11, and tricams 0.5-2.0. I learned to lead on passive, and I'm best at nuts by the way, moving on to cams. Splitters (and Index in general) can be hard to protect in places otherwise.

 

I originally thought it would be wiser to just go entirely passive, but almost everybody I have talked to (and experience as well) tells me cams definitely have their place.

 

-Mark

 

I bought a full Rock Empire set of cams for like 400 bucks a couple years ago.. 8 cams total i think. Not as good as BD but i still plug them in on hard routes and fall on them....

 

I've considered those, but never used them myself. The BD cams I just bought were 20% off with free shipping, I figured I couldn't pass them up! So far all I have are Tech Friends 1.0-2.5 (4 cams) and Camalots 1-3 (3 cams). Not quite a full rack yet, I still need a couple larger cams to protect hand to fist cracks.

 

Will it work out climbing with you, or are you too far away?

 

 

Don't let any of us fool you. Cams do have their place. Some crack climbs (although few in comparison) wouldn't be protectable without them.

 

Drew's and my point was you can climb a lot and climb hard...with less financial outlay with nuts and hexs.

 

But cams are mandatory at some point and can offer solid protection where almost nothing else will.

 

 

Certainly! Nuts are almost always the first thing off my rack. They are my favorite kind of protection, and much cheaper than cams. I am trying to learn to use all forms of protection well, even when I'm scared and pumped, and I am still working on my cam-skills. Nuts are easier for me to tell if they are solid or not. However, cams (and tricams, but they take a while when you only have one free hand) are the safest way to protect parallel cracks, which are quite fun to climb, but I think they're scary to lead, and safety is very important.

 

-Mark

Edited November 21, 2009 by rocketparrotlet

[marc_leclerc]

Will it work out climbing with you, or are you too far away?

 

-Mark

 

If im ever going to Leavenworth or Index I will let you know... likely in the spring at the earliest. My girlfriend and I want to climb Outer Space, wich sounds like it could be up your alley

[rocketparrotlet]

Will it work out climbing with you, or are you too far away?

 

-Mark

 

If im ever going to Leavenworth or Index I will let you know... likely in the spring at the earliest. My girlfriend and I want to climb Outer Space, wich sounds like it could be up your alley

 

I've been drooling over that route this summer! If you're ever headed down south to Leavenworth, send me a PM...that would be awesome!

 

-Mark

[Dane]

I am obviously not very good at this.

 

For those that have not seen it, rent the movie, "Pay it Forward" and you'll get where i am coming from. I saw it once 8 or 9 years ago and the idea stuck with me.

 

Or just take a moment and watch the youtube trailer. Then imagine what we (as climbers) could really do if we tried. Doesn't need to be three...one would do. Doesn't need to be today. Just something we keep in the back of our minds for the right person on the right day when we are able. Might be tomorrow might be 30 years from now.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwHcS-XoYbc

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0223897/

 

 

[layton]

I'll donate 10 books. Let me know the details