Rad Posted November 15, 2009 Posted November 15, 2009 Went to the Everett VW this afternoon and was surprised to see that the bouldering routes aren't graded with the v scale. They are now in circuits. The v0-v1 are one circuit (blue?), the v2-v3 are in another (green), the V4-v5 are yellow, and v6 and up are pink. But of course the routes are taped all different colors and their tape color bears no relation to the circuit designation. This is perplexing. There's a pretty big difference between an easy v2 and a hard v3. Or an easy v4 and a hard v5. Why lump them together? Are you tired of people whining about grades? Sure some routes are reachy and others are scrunched. Some are crimpy and others slopey. Some folks will whine no matter what you do. It's not you, it's just who they are. Don't worry about it. Are you trying to mimic the Fontainbleu system? (I don't really know how that works anyway). Am I supposed to do all of the routes in a circuit? I am not fixated on grades, but I was curious to see how another gym's route grades compare to ours at UW. I still don't know. The curious thing is that roped routes still have letter grades (11a vs 11b). I feel that there's much less difference between 10b and 10c than between v2 and v3. At UW, we have the opposite: v grades on boulder problems, sometimes with + and - appended, while roped routes have no letters (5.10, 5.11, 5.12). MAybe this sounds like a rant, but it's not meant to be. While I don't particularly understand or like the new system, it doesn't detract from the climbing experience. Good routes are fun and bad ones are annoying regardless of how they're graded. I enjoyed all the routes we did today at VW everett. Good job setters. Quote
tomtom Posted November 18, 2009 Posted November 18, 2009 Some folks will whine no matter what you do. So true. Quote
Bishopp66 Posted November 18, 2009 Posted November 18, 2009 I am mixed on the topic. I climb there and like the problems. I am just starting to get into the Yellow circuit (4-5) and have been able to project 2 of them. Are they 4's or 5's, I'm not sure but they are still harder than what I was doing before (but if I made them... probably 4s). I guess it basically breaks things up for me into: warming up (Blue 0s and 1s), general climbing and technique (green 2s and 3s) and working on project routes (yellow 4s and 5s), then back to do a 4x4 circuit... usually 2 blues and 2 greens. I suspect they are doing this for the climbing team and their workouts. Quote
112 Posted November 18, 2009 Posted November 18, 2009 PRG does the same thing sometimes with suits of cards; hearts, spades, clubs, and diamonds. I like it as I feel more free to interpret the particular climb's actual difficulty. When routes are numbered I feel I should do them in order, regardless if graded correctly (personal preference that I don't always follow). Do you get upset if a route is wrongly graded (easier/harder) when compared to other routes within the same gym? I do sometimes. I think the "circuits" mitigate this issue well. Quote
Rad Posted November 19, 2009 Author Posted November 19, 2009 Whatever logic would support the idea of circuit grades for bouldering would support the same thing for roped routes. 112, do you get upset about misgraded roped routes? Ratings always have been and always will be subjective. A single route might feel hard for the grade or easy for the grade to different climbers. I don't worry too much about grades. It just feels good to be challenged and improving and ratings is one way to see that. Maybe this VW thing is just a bid to be trendy/cool... Quote
RuMR Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 no...its not...actually, knowing the setting crew, they got tired of the constant bitching about underated routes, blah blah blah... so...they've gone the way of Font and did a wider circuit band...pretty hard to argue with a boulder problem being inside of a range rather tan a specific number... Personally, i think its pretty sweet and a good training mechanism... Routes are long enough that a hard move or two within a bunch of moves won't shift the grade more than a letter or two...personally, if up to me, i'd prefer the +, nothing, or - system for routes too... My only request from them (and they've been good about this) is to stay consistent in rating (whatever way they use) month to month and route to route...could care less if they overate or underate, just stay consistent...for benchmark purposes... Quote
Rad Posted November 19, 2009 Author Posted November 19, 2009 Routes are long enough that a hard move or two within a bunch of moves won't shift the grade more than a letter or two... I don't understand that because a route is supposed to be graded based on its hardest move, right? So if the crux is 10c and that move gets harder or easier then that changes the grade. Changing easier moves on the route doesn't affect the overall grade. My only request from them (and they've been good about this) is to stay consistent in rating (whatever way they use) month to month and route to route...could care less if they overate or underate, just stay consistent...for benchmark purposes... Agreed. And I would extend this same comment to outdoor areas: it doesn't matter whether they are hard or soft as long as they are consistent within a single area. Quote
kevbone Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 The gyms should not grade any of the bouldering problems. That would take all the ego out of it. Quote
112 Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 112, do you get upset about misgraded roped routes? Yes I have, but a lot less often. Quote
RuMR Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 The gyms should not grade any of the bouldering problems. That would take all the ego out of it. what does ego have to do with this? I think the only one with an ego issue is YOU... Quote
RuMR Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 Routes are long enough that a hard move or two within a bunch of moves won't shift the grade more than a letter or two... I don't understand that because a route is supposed to be graded based on its hardest move, right? So if the crux is 10c and that move gets harder or easier then that changes the grade. Changing easier moves on the route doesn't affect the overall grade. My only request from them (and they've been good about this) is to stay consistent in rating (whatever way they use) month to month and route to route...could care less if they overate or underate, just stay consistent...for benchmark purposes... Agreed. And I would extend this same comment to outdoor areas: it doesn't matter whether they are hard or soft as long as they are consistent within a single area. this is not a true statement... Quote
kevbone Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 The gyms should not grade any of the bouldering problems. That would take all the ego out of it. what does ego have to do with this? I think the only one with an ego issue is YOU... You sound like you have never climbed indoors. Quote
RuMR Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 you sound like you have a bruised (or rather crushed) ego... Quote
kevbone Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 you sound like you have a bruised (or rather crushed) ego... Yup....everytime I climb in the gym. Quote
Kimmo Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 Routes are long enough that a hard move or two within a bunch of moves won't shift the grade more than a letter or two... what if that "hard move or two" is a V10 on an otherwise 5.10c? I don't understand that because a route is supposed to be graded based on its hardest move, right? . the hardest move'll dictate the grade of a route only if there is no cumulative fatigue, ie. a V7 boulder crux on a 5.11 with good rests before and after the crux, pretty standard to rate it 5.13a. on the other hand, you can have a 5.14 with nothing harder than V4. Quote
RuMR Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 Routes are long enough that a hard move or two within a bunch of moves won't shift the grade more than a letter or two... what if that "hard move or two" is a V10 on an otherwise 5.10c? I don't understand that because a route is supposed to be graded based on its hardest move, right? . the hardest move'll dictate the grade of a route only if there is no cumulative fatigue, ie. a V7 boulder crux on a 5.11 with good rests before and after the crux, pretty standard to rate it 5.13a. on the other hand, you can have a 5.14 with nothing harder than V4. well then that would be stupid route setting...wouldn't it? Quote
tomtom Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 Arguing about gym grades is like running in the Special Olympics ... Quote
Bishopp66 Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 Arguing about gym grades is like running in the Special Olympics ... What, no punchline... I'm sure that there are numerous finishes to this one! Quote
Kimmo Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 Arguing about gym grades is like running in the Special Olympics ... i don't think anyone was arguing, dickhead. why don't you take your "humor" into a private message forum with porter? there you can joke about minorities, women, the developmentally disabled, etc etc to your heart's content, without exposing others to your poor taste. Quote
Kimmo Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 well then that would be stupid route setting...wouldn't it? well, it might be-depends on yer perspective-but that wasn't the point, right? Quote
hemp22 Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 gym grades, are: - extremely subjective - never going to achieve a "consensus" like a permanent climb would. - dependent on a particular climber's strengths & weaknesses - dependent on climber's size, wingspan, etc. - not easily translated into "real world" outdoor situations So, it definitely doesn't surprise me that routesetters would get tired of people bickering about whether something is a hard V3 or an easy V4. This circuit concept may be a good way to partially get around that. Perhaps the next logical step is just to remove all the grades in the gym, and let each climber figure out for himself or herself whether route A or route B is harder for them (rather that have joe-blow gym-employee tell them that B is harder than A) oh, wait, that's already been done... Quote
Rad Posted November 20, 2009 Author Posted November 20, 2009 Perhaps the next logical step is just to remove all the grades in the gym, and let each climber figure out for himself or herself whether route A or route B is harder for them. I've only been in two bouldering comps, but I liked that all problems were new, they had points instead of ratings, and there was no indication of how points related to V grades. Each climb was like a puzzle to solve without annoying preconceptions of this 'should be easy' or 'no way I'll flash'. Add to that the positive energy and encouragement of fellow participants. Now that was fun. Quote
RuMR Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 Arguing about gym grades is like running in the Special Olympics ... i don't think anyone was arguing, dickhead. why don't you take your "humor" into a private message forum with porter? there you can joke about minorities, women, the developmentally disabled, etc etc to your heart's content, without exposing others to your poor taste. Quote
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