absolutely hilarious!

[tvashtarkatena]

That's one reason why these armchair warriors who are pushing this shit (on somebody else) make me fucking puke.

[JayB]

The answer, if there is one, doesn't matter, because suicide bombers don't blow themselves up for back-of-the-matchbook rewards, virgins or otherwise. Detailed surveys of the writings and testimonials of real suicide bombers, both those who were caught before they went and those who actually carried out their missions, reveal somewhat less trite, propagandized (in the American conservative style...keep it simple!) reasons for taking their decision to attack the enemy in this manner.

 

Primary reasons center around the desire to make their lives count by doing something effective (as suicide bombing certainly is) against an enemy with overwhelming conventional military superiority.

 

Our side's the target, so we necessarily tend to de-humanize these people as buffoons, dupes, insane, pawns, even cowards (???), but the reality is quite different. We have failed to counter this hugely successful tactic in no small part because we refuse to face what really drives it. Suicide bombing may not be the most kosher or positive way to spend, or expend, in this case, one's life, but a fair number of Americans could stand to try to make a difference in there lives with even a fraction of the self sacrifice and heart these people demonstrate.

 

Given that there's no religious motives or sanctions in play here whatsoever, and that tactical/secular imperatives are the only thing that matters, it stands to reason that the representation of Arab Christians, Jews, and secularists of all stripes amongst the folks detonating themselves in order to advance a particular goal or agenda must be commensurate with their representation in the various societies that generate suicide bombers. I'm sure that there are statistics out there that reflect that.

 

It's also strange that they've so often chosen to detonate themselves amongst fellow Arabs and Muslims with such regularity, much less that the overwhelming military superiority enjoyed by civilians in markets, on passenger trains, in civilian aircraft, in Mosques, pre-schools, etc would compel them to employ this tactic in those locales. Unarmed civilians going about their business clearly present a threat of sufficient magnitude that all bets are off.

 

I think that you are off the mark in condemning Americans for entirely lacking this level of commitment and "heart." Timothy McVeigh, for example, had at least 50% or more of the "sacrifice and heart that these people demonstrate," so if you're going to praise suicide bombers for the many virtues that they embody, you're remiss in sparing him an equal measure of praise. So, when you have a spare moment I hope that you'll employ the same logic, and fire up the keyboard on his behalf.

[tvashtarkatena]

Arguing in the mirror again, Jay? Try with another human being sometime.

[ivan]

"let us try to remember the names of all the sudbury boys who so gallantly gave their lives to keep china british!"

[video:youtube]

[ivan]

The answer, if there is one, doesn't matter, because suicide bombers don't blow themselves up for back-of-the-matchbook rewards, virgins or otherwise. Detailed surveys of the writings and testimonials of real suicide bombers, both those who were caught before they went and those who actually carried out their missions, reveal somewhat less trite, propagandized (in the American conservative style...keep it simple!) reasons for taking their decision to attack the enemy in this manner.

 

Primary reasons center around the desire to make their lives count by doing something effective (as suicide bombing certainly is) against an enemy with overwhelming conventional military superiority.

 

Our side's the target, so we necessarily tend to de-humanize these people as buffoons, dupes, insane, pawns, even cowards (???), but the reality is quite different. We have failed to counter this hugely successful tactic in no small part because we refuse to face what really drives it. Suicide bombing may not be the most kosher or positive way to spend, or expend, in this case, one's life, but a fair number of Americans could stand to try to make a difference in there lives with even a fraction of the self sacrifice and heart these people demonstrate.

 

Given that there's no religious motives or sanctions in play here whatsoever, and that tactical/secular imperatives are the only thing that matters, it stands to reason that the representation of Arab Christians, Jews, and secularists of all stripes amongst the folks detonating themselves in order to advance a particular goal or agenda must be commensurate with their representation in the various societies that generate suicide bombers. I'm sure that there are statistics out there that reflect that.

 

It's also strange that they've so often chosen to detonate themselves amongst fellow Arabs and Muslims with such regularity, much less that the overwhelming military superiority enjoyed by civilians in markets, on passenger trains, in civilian aircraft, in Mosques, pre-schools, etc would compel them to employ this tactic in those locales.

 

I think that you are off the mark in condemning Americans for entirely lacking this level of commitment and "heart." Timothy McVeigh, for example, had at least 50% or more of the "sacrifice and heart that these people demonstrate," so if you're going to praise suicide bombers for the many virtues that they embody, you're remiss in sparing him an equal measure of praise. So, when you have a spare moment I hope that you'll employ the same logic, and fire up the keyboard on his behalf.

jay, no judgemnt in it at all, but goddamn you can TALK like mcnamara!

[tvashtarkatena]

Here's some clear points you might actually grasp, but probably not:

 

Reveling in the watching of snuff flicks is the past time of a sick cunt. Enjoy.

 

To dehumanize and oversimplify one's adversaries, particularly when they most likely will eventually prevail against our misguided efforts, is to be a dupe of the oldest and more overused state propaganda trick in the book. Of course, you're no stranger to being duped.

 

Keep reaching for pat answers, like your dime store understanding of Islam, though. After all, that's what your people do.

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Perhaps, although McNamara eventually realized his mistakes.

[olyclimber]

If you qoute the person you're responding to it makes it look less like you're talking to yourself. and believe me, i'm an expert at carrying on conversation with myself.

[JayB]

Arguing in the mirror again, Jay? Try with another human being sometime.

 

Who was arguing? I thought that last post of yours was fascinating, and hope that you'll expand on it. Particularly possibilities that arise from incorporating the level of unwavering commitment, remorselessness, ruthlessness, and uncritical zeal that the average jihadi brings to bear on a typical suicide bombing mission into our personal and civic lives.*

 

Just imagine the implications for the self-help industry. It'd blow most self-help programs right out of the water. One can easily imagine Robert Fulghum enviously eyeing the sales stats for "All I Really Know I Learned from Osama" in that sector of the publishing market.

 

Do carry on.

 

*Haven't your typical abortion clinic bombers, abortion doctor murderers, etc already done so?

[tvashtarkatena]

If you qoute the person you're responding to it makes it look less like you're talking to yourself. and believe me, i'm an expert at carrying on conversation with myself.

 

Just a second, I'm almost at the punchline of the joke I've been telling myself.

[tvashtarkatena]

Besides, if I got into the habit of quoted JayB, your bandwidth would be history.

[tvashtarkatena]

I just wanted to say goodbye to myself before signing off, here.

[ivan]

Perhaps, although McNamara eventually realized his mistakes.

i don't actually know jay's take on afghanistan but i'd like to hear it - he's obviously a very logical guy pat (speaking of "pat answers" ), but as you say, mcnamara was able to give voice to the problems of logic vs emotion near the end of his life - afghanistan certainly feels wrong to me - how does it feel to you jay?

[JayB]

Here's some clear points you might actually grasp, but probably not:

 

Reveling in the watching of snuff flicks is the past time of a sick cunt. Enjoy.

 

To dehumanize and oversimplify one's adversaries, particularly when they most likely will eventually prevail against our misguided efforts, is to be a dupe of the oldest and more overused state propaganda trick in the book. Of course, you're no stranger to being duped.

 

Keep reaching for pat answers, like your dime store understanding of Islam, though. After all, that's what your people do.

 

 

Not at all. I am clearly defering to your superior expertise on these matters, and am hoping that you'll use it to expand on the claims and expand on the themes that you introduced in that post.

 

Take your time.

[JayB]

Perhaps, although McNamara eventually realized his mistakes.

i don't actually know jay's take on afghanistan but i'd like to hear it - he's obviously a very logical guy pat (speaking of "pat answers" ), but as you say, mcnamara was able to give voice to the problems of logic vs emotion near the end of his life - afghanistan certainly feels wrong to me - how does it feel to you jay?

 

I supported the invasion and our efforts to kill all members of Al Queda present there, displace the Taliban, and establish a civil framework that the population could at the very least have a chance to use to construct a government upon that was substantially less primitive, backwards, and barbarous than the Taliban.

 

I don't think that it will be possible to turn Afghanistan into anything remotely resembling a modern, prosperous, stable democracy so we'll probably have to settle for something far less than that, call it good, and disengage while retaining the capacity to attack and kill Al-Queda or whoever else shares their goals and tactics when the opportunity to do so arises. Something more ambitious might have been possible in other circumstances, and with less feckless and uncommitted allies and more partners like Canada and the UK, but that's clearly not in the cards at this point unless the Afghans themselves make it so.

 

 

 

 

[ivan]

Perhaps, although McNamara eventually realized his mistakes.

i don't actually know jay's take on afghanistan but i'd like to hear it - he's obviously a very logical guy pat (speaking of "pat answers" ), but as you say, mcnamara was able to give voice to the problems of logic vs emotion near the end of his life - afghanistan certainly feels wrong to me - how does it feel to you jay?

 

I supported the invasion and our efforts to kill all members of Al Queda present there, displace the Taliban, and establish a civil framework that the population could at the very least have a chance to use to construct a government upon that was substantially less primitive, backwards, and barbarous than the Taliban.

 

I don't think that it will be possible to turn Afghanistan into anything remotely resembling a modern, prosperous, stable democracy so we'll probably have to settle for something far less than that, call it good, and disengage while retaining the capacity to attack and kill Al-Queda or whoever else shares their goals and tactics when the opportunity to do so arises. Something more ambitious might have been possible in other circumstances, and with less feckless and uncommitted allies and more partners like Canada and the UK, but that's clearly not in the cards at this point unless the Afghans themselves make it so.

i can't imagine tvash's position being much different - i for one wouldn't blame a thing on our allies, who were far more supportive of this endeavor then iraq, which we blew our wad on to the detriment of afghan. afghan prior to 9/11 was simply a training ground, and it coulda just as easily been somalia or a # of other shitholes across the world - as far as "settling and calling it good" there's no time like the present - this most recent afghan election makes it clear we're shackling ourselves to a corpse, just like in vietnam, so let's get the fuck out of there simulatenous to exiting iraq - cut the support for both places, cut the defense budget too then let's start working on this debt and more important domestic priorities!

[tvashtarkatena]

Christ, it's like watching The Quiet American, over and over again.

 

We can't afford it Jay. Any of it. I've lost count of how many friends are now unemployed right now.

 

We're fucking done out there.

Edited October 4, 2009 by tvashtarkatena

[olyclimber]

[video:youtube]-jBrbPnnhqg

[Pete_H]

Perhaps, although McNamara eventually realized his mistakes.

i don't actually know jay's take on afghanistan but i'd like to hear it - he's obviously a very logical guy pat (speaking of "pat answers" ), but as you say, mcnamara was able to give voice to the problems of logic vs emotion near the end of his life - afghanistan certainly feels wrong to me - how does it feel to you jay?

 

I supported the invasion and our efforts to kill all members of Al Queda present there, displace the Taliban, and establish a civil framework that the population could at the very least have a chance to use to construct a government upon that was substantially less primitive, backwards, and barbarous than the Taliban.

 

I don't think that it will be possible to turn Afghanistan into anything remotely resembling a modern, prosperous, stable democracy so we'll probably have to settle for something far less than that, call it good, and disengage while retaining the capacity to attack and kill Al-Queda or whoever else shares their goals and tactics when the opportunity to do so arises. Something more ambitious might have been possible in other circumstances, and with less feckless and uncommitted allies and more partners like Canada and the UK, but that's clearly not in the cards at this point unless the Afghans themselves make it so.

 

 

 

So in other words our effort was doomed from the start.

[ivan]

 

So in other words our effort was doomed from the start.

it might be true that its hopeless now, but i bet we could have made it work in 2002 if we'd been willing to put the level of resources in that we used instead on satan hussein - if we'd rolled the dice and come up w/ a 1 in a million statesman like gandhi it coulda gone too, but the hand we're holding now is plainly a loser so let's fold and go get a late dinner n' a fancy drink, eh?

[ivan]

also, if we'd be willing to surrender on this dumb ass war on drugs thing too, we'd be able to cut the financial legs out from under the bad-guys, but jeebus (howdy kk!) is all we need for pain n' boredom, not opioum, so too bad...

[tvashtarkatena]

But, Ivan, what about THE CHILDREN???

[tvashtarkatena]

We watched Milk last night. It was absolutely hilarious to see the GOP+Thumpers pull out THE CHILDREN argument in favor of firing all gay teachers in California via Prop 6. Pretty much the same argument used to start and fund the drug war.

 

Any time I hear a politician talk about THE CHILDREN I duct tape my asshole.

 

 

[ivan]

We watched Milk last night.

wait, you're counting hte blow-up doll as a person now, or is that the royal we?

[tvashtarkatena]

There were other people in the room, but I have no idea who they were or where they came from.

 

Two words: Anita Fucking Bryant.

 

She's still alive and well...witness the anti-gay marriage fight happening right now, thirty one motherfucking years later, in our very own state.

 

THE CHILDREN!!