Belay off anchor problems with autolocking device

[SplashClimber]

Ok, I have read tons of books and have heard lots of people use the direct belay off anchor method with either a BD ATC-Guide or a Petzl Reverso, but I am just not doing that well with it! Certainly lots of these devices are being sold, and I see them out there!

 

I have tried several times to use my BD ATC-Guide in autolock mode and each time it has been a horribly hard pull to take in the rope on the follower. My device is a BD ATC-Guide, and the rope is 9.8mm, and I used a Petzl Attache biner (nice and smooth shape) on the device where you encase it around the black wire on the device and the rope.

 

For example at Ingalls Peak South Ridge route there are 2 bolts you can set up a perfect situation indirect belay using a autolock device. The bolts are about chest high, and not too far away from the your stance (1-2 feet?).

 

So ideally I would love some advice. But also just a quick response to let me know it works fine for you is fine too!

[TMO]

I have just started using the ATC guide. I'm not having too much trouble in the auto-lock mode, but a bit. It seems to get "sticky" at times... I too would like to hear how others use these, any tricks to 'em?

[penoyar]

I use mine directly off the anchor on every pitch, unless it's a situation where the device ends up down low relative to my stance. Having it up high is key. Use one hand to pull up slack on the climber's end, and the other to pull down on the brake end simultaneously. It's important to have both ends of the rope (climber and brake) as parallel as possible when taking up slack, this will minimize friction in the device. Although Newton says you can't push a rope, I find that giving the climber's end of the rope a little nudge into the device helps if it's getting sticky. Stay with it, you'll get faster with time as your hands coordinate their up-down movement better. I regularly bring up 2 seconds on 10.2mm lines, though my rotator cuffs are pretty tired by the end of their climb.

[NateF]

I've noticed that the stiffness of the rope is a factor with the reverso 3 (haven't used other devices) in autoblock, it seems to get stuck easily or won't work at all with stiffer ropes. Surprised that you're having trouble with a 9.8 though. Try it with a few of your friend's ropes and see how it goes.

mine won't work with my 10.2mm edelweiss, but works great with my buddy's rope which I believe is a 9.9mm edelweiss and is much more supple. Diameter is probably a factor, but the difference in stiffness of the ropes is what seems to make all the difference in autoblocking.

 

I'd also like to hear any tricks of the trade..

[Sol]

in my experience the reverso will belay fatter ropes easier than the guide atc. with that said, i prefer and use the guide atc, i just don't autolock a second if we have a thicker cord (usually when cragging).

 

[BirdDog]

I have a Reverso 3 and have used it with my 10.3 Edelwiess. It's a little stiff with the 10.3. The key is having a little slack in the climbers end, and using a push/pull technique. Like penoyar said "rotator cuff is tired at the end of the day." Works real well with thinner ropes.

Edited August 25, 2009 by BirdDog

[Sherri]

Use one hand to pull up slack on the climber's end, and the other to pull down on the brake end simultaneously. It's important to have both ends of the rope (climber and brake) as parallel as possible when taking up slack, this will minimize friction in the device. Although Newton says you can't push a rope, I find that giving the climber's end of the rope a little nudge into the device helps if it's getting sticky. Stay with it, you'll get faster with time as your hands coordinate their up-down movement better.

 

Exactly. A couple of my partners refer to it as "milking."

[G-spotter]

The further you are from the autolock the easier it is to get the rope through.... if your hands are only 1-2 feet from the device it may suck. Try more like 6 feet.

[justinp]

The only problem I have ever had is when using a small diameter or odd shaped x-section biner (i.e. not round). By using a slightly larger diameter biner I was able to decrease the bend and the rope feed smoothly.

[johndavidjr]

I've used a munter hitch a fair bit off an anchor. It's nice and simple.

 

People complain about twisting but I haven't had too much of a problem. I must say, however, I don't have vast experience.

[genepires]

A ways back I used a gi gi from kong to belay off the anchor. then the reverso came out and I followed along till it developed a shard edge. then i got a guide atc and it seems hard to pull also. So I have gone back to the gi gi with easy pulling.

If it is too hard to pull the rope through, maybe consider getting a kong gi gi. Maybe hard to find though. Look in canada for one.

[SplashClimber]

Ah ha! So my situation on Ingalls is such that I think the anchor bolts themselves are just below chest height, and if you add the slings though then the device maybe was around waist level and the device only about 1-2 feet at most from my hands. You cannot stand lower or farther away because you are on a small ledge. So this is a part of the problem from what you are saying (re: distance from the device to your hands). The milking advice might help also. My second was also moving really fast, and with the stickiness/sluggishnes I just could not keep up.

 

When in doubt I might resort to the munter, which I often use when belaying off a huge boulder. And yes, very simple, and I sure can yard on it and quickly haul a fast climber up very quickly. But will certainly keep on seeing how I can get the autolock to work.

 

I also have a Petzl Rerverso3, and maybe I will see if it works more smoothly with my 9.8mm rope.

 

I need to retire my rope soon, any recommendations for a rope that would work well in autlock mode?

[G-spotter]

Something with a dry treatment that has a smooth finish?

[SplashClimber]

Good point... my rope is older, maybe dry treatment has worn off by now ( does dry treatment wear off, maybe? ). The rope always has been a bit twisty ( my rope is a Maxim9.8x60m Leavittator dry rope)

 

[SplashClimber]

So I have gone back to the gi gi with easy pulling.

 

Excellent suggestion, something to consider for my climbing budget ( Already have BD ATC-Guide, and Petzl Reverso3)

[SplashClimber]

I think this is a new video by BD, excellent visual. Seems like a setup where the device is at eye-level and where you can pull directly straight down is the ideal situation (video and BD manual). With any other setup... you will have to deal with a bit more management, and a bit more stickiness.

 

BD video on atc-guide in autolock mode: http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb//howto-video-using-an-atc-guide

 

[LostCamKenny]

I use mine directly off the anchor on every pitch, unless it's a situation where the device ends up down low relative to my stance. Having it up high is key. Use one hand to pull up slack on the climber's end, and the other to pull down on the brake end simultaneously. It's important to have both ends of the rope (climber and brake) as parallel as possible when taking up slack, this will minimize friction in the device. Although Newton says you can't push a rope, I find that giving the climber's end of the rope a little nudge into the device helps if it's getting sticky. Stay with it, you'll get faster with time as your hands coordinate their up-down movement better. I regularly bring up 2 seconds on 10.2mm lines, though my rotator cuffs are pretty tired by the end of their climb.

To add to this - the autoblocking devices seem to lock up pretty easily, even if the rope is newer and more supple than an old rope. I put a second biner through the device to keep it from locking up as easily (here come the naysayers!!!) and I haven't had a problem even with a rope as stiff as a cable, and Jim's rope is nearly that! And no, the xtra biner hasn't kept the device from operating in this mode safely!

[SplashClimber]

I put a second biner through the device to keep it from locking up as easily

 

I might have to try the 2nd biner idea. I use the Petzl Attache, fairly smooth, but maybe adding another biner might help. Should it be another smooth biner, or any other locking/non-locking biner?

[BirdDog]

To add to this - the autoblocking devices seem to lock up pretty easily, even if the rope is newer and more supple than an old rope. I put a second biner through the device to keep it from locking up as easily (here come the naysayers!!!) and I haven't had a problem even with a rope as stiff as a cable, and Jim's rope is nearly that! And no, the xtra biner hasn't kept the device from operating in this mode safely!

 

LCK; Have you tested the 2 'biner method? Will it hold a falling second, without a brake hand from the leader? Not being a naysayer, just asking.

[spotly]

I've heard people say the munter doesn't suck for them as long as it's not kept too tight around the biner. My climbing parter liked to use it but after too many fits at the belay dealing with twisted ropes(think anger management), I finally got him to switch to a Guide.

 

I've got a few friends who use the Reverso but they're also replacing them at a 2:1 rate over my Guide. They seem to wear pretty fast and even though I haven't heard of that nasty resulting knife-edge cutting a rope, I don't like the looks of it personally Not having used one myself, I'd wonder if that narrowing area causes some sticking problems itself?

 

I've used the guide for several years and never had the sticking problem - always runs smooth and I can't say I'm doing anything special. Sometimes I'm a ways below the anchor and sometimes my hands are right there at the guide.

 

We've used ropes from 8.2 (probably smaller than recommended) to 9.8 in it. Typically we're using an 8.9.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2009 by spotly