Sport vs Trad

[olyclimber]

bahhahaha.....YOU WANNA GO BITCH? I can spray you under the table you little weasel.

 

 

[pink]

bahhahaha.....YOU WANNA GO BITCH? I can spray you under the table you little weasel.

 

 

 

[olyclimber]

I'm better looking than that.

[olyclimber]

Anyway, jefe had to go run back under his mom's skirt.

[pink]

I'm better looking than that.

 

 

and more awesomerester!

[pink]

Anyway, jefe had to go run back under his mom's skirt.

 

 

that's gross.... ope he doesn't follow up with a trip report.

[olyclimber]

I've been there. Its a dense forest of hair under there. Definitely Grade VI.

[olyclimber]

Also, bring water. The snow fields don't last long up there and the stream is unpredictable.

[pink]

since when did this become a canyoneering site?

[olyclimber]

if you're such a pussy that you can't take it, then maybe you shouldn't be dishing it out mmmmkay pink? GOT IT???

 

fucken punk.

[olyclimber]

anyway its not canyoneering...its caving.

[pink]

i feel so intolerant to all this intolerance!

[olyclimber]

well if you can't dish it out then maybe you can just wash the dishes afterward.

[pink]

anyway its not canyoneering...its caving.

 

 

that's not what captain canyoneering man told me>>>

[pink]

well if you can't dish it out then maybe you can just wash the dishes afterward.

 

it's paper plates and plastic sporks for this hombre.

[olyclimber]

I can't take any more of this heat Pink. I'm out of this kitchen.

[pink]

whoa NELLY, ur gonna take ur clothes off?

[Off_White]

Couple comments. I always tried to lead something before top-roping it because I thought it was really exciting and you only get one chance. Everything is new, nothing is certain, and your brain is working just as hard as your body, trying to read the route, find the gear, find the rests. I just love that shite. But I completely understand that other folks have different ideas about what's fun and safe and impressive.....or whatever motivates you. No problem. I don't think I've ever criticized somebody for top-roping a climb. My question is, for those who are developing routes, why would you then leave a trail of trashy bolts all over the rock? Seems like you've squeezed most of the fun out of it, so why not call it a day and leave it as a top-rope climb?

 

Also back in the '80s sport climbers would distinguish between several styles of leading a climb, based on the amount of previewing and also how the protection was rigged. There was the red point, the pink point, and the brown point. I'm sure some old fart like Bill or OW will log on later and educate us about the subtle distinctions between these designations.

 

This was a pretty interesting post, thanks Pope. I'll address a couple of your questions.

 

Why would someone bother putting in bolts after they've top roped something? Well, even if you've top roped a route, it feels different to lead it, that's one thing. The other is that when done right, what's left behind is a route that can offer a challenging onsite or redpoint to others, by which I mean other people can walk up and have that experience you love, just minus the "find the gear bit" if it's an otherwise unprotectable face. Finding the rests, working out sequences, moving up, backing down to a rest to recover, heading back out, it's still an engaging chess game even without a gear placement on the route. You're right, you can't have that if you've top roped a route beforehand, but others can. I don't know why others put up routes this way, because its a hell of a lot of hard work. I can tell you about why I do it sometimes.

 

I have a private climbing area that is just full of examples. The routes often exist as top ropes for awhile, a bunch of us discuss whether its worth setting up as a lead route, bolt location often happens by group conversation, taking into account things like where are the reasonable stances, what will you hit, and how to maintain an engaging route that merits repeat ascents yet someone can come up and onsight. Frankly, I think the first ascent process on this sort of thing is really fuzzy: who's the FA? The person who conceived of the line? The person who cleaned off anything loose? The person who first top roped it? The person who put in the bolts (often involves several people), the first person to redpoint it? It's all kind of silly and unimportant to me, because you're right, compared to walking up to a blank slate with no knowledge of what's there and climbing that unknown line successfully, the process I described is just playing around, no big deal. Out in Tenino anyway, I think the first climb of a route that has any significance is the first time (well, every time actually) someone walks up cold and onsights a route, and that always impresses the hell out of me.

 

The sort of climb you describe is analogous to a flash of artistic genius, a peak moment when skill, imagination, doubt, and experience combine for a truly memorable event. Its damned awesome to experience, no argument about that.

 

A sport route done well is something different, is an exercise in craftsmanship. Craft usually gets dissed by artists, but mastery and creation are present as well. The making of something durable and solid that others can appreciate for their own use is a different sort of reward. You've tried to explain it away as about ego and getting your name in the book, because you're viewing it from an artist's bias, which is a more selfish thing (note, it's okay to be selfish sometimes, I'm being descriptive not dismissive). Therefore, you think the FA on a sport route must be engaged in some pursuit of selfish pleasure, fame and glory, or whatever. You should consider that perhaps many are merely in pursuit of an interesting thing done well, they're craftsmen. Yeah, I know we can cherry pick some obvious contradictions to my hypothesis, but if I'm wrong, why are so many sport first ascensionists so damn shy? Where are they boasting about their glorious achievements? Guidebooks of yore were much more upfront about who did the FA, the brilliant artist wants full credit for their work of genius. Nowadays you're lucky to find a list in the back of the book, a move I believe was done to "diminish" ego as a motivation. It's kind of a pity too, because as in any craft, not all craftspeople are equal and some build inferior work. That is true of sport routes too, and with a little experience with workmanship, knowing who put up a route can tell you a bit about what to expect or watch out for.

 

Oh, and you had another question for the old farts about red, pink, and brown points. I'm sure you are fully cognizant of those distinctions, but I'll perform as invoked. Red we know is the climbing of a route without weighting the protection. Pink has been discarded by the elite as a designation these days, but it meant that all the draws were pre-installed on the bolts or the gear pre-placed, so all you had to do was clip your rope through the biner. I think it was a good bit of honesty about one's ascent, because if you're climbing at your limit, and a route is really hard for you, its definitely easier to just clip the draw or piece rather than place it yourself. People assert that the hardest routes today are much too hard today to clip the draw to the bolt and now call it a red point as well, but I think it just dumbs down the definition. Brown point is a derogatory term for just getting up a route by any means necessary, pulling gear, hanging, and generally pitching a fit. Used in a sentence, you would say, "I saw Ivan out at Beacon today and he made an ugly ugly brown point on Blownout."

[Off_White]

Hey Pink and Porter, STFU, some of us are actually thinking in here.

[pink]

in here? that put a pretty grim image inside my head. were all fucking trapped in here...ok, whose hand is that?

[pope]

Couple comments. I always tried to lead something before top-roping it because I thought it was really exciting and you only get one chance. Everything is new, nothing is certain, and your brain is working just as hard as your body, trying to read the route, find the gear, find the rests. I just love that shite. But I completely understand that other folks have different ideas about what's fun and safe and impressive.....or whatever motivates you. No problem. I don't think I've ever criticized somebody for top-roping a climb. My question is, for those who are developing routes, why would you then leave a trail of trashy bolts all over the rock? Seems like you've squeezed most of the fun out of it, so why not call it a day and leave it as a top-rope climb?

 

Also back in the '80s sport climbers would distinguish between several styles of leading a climb, based on the amount of previewing and also how the protection was rigged. There was the red point, the pink point, and the brown point. I'm sure some old fart like Bill or OW will log on later and educate us about the subtle distinctions between these designations.

 

This was a pretty interesting post, thanks Pope. I'll address a couple of your questions.

 

Why would someone bother putting in bolts after they've top roped something? Well, even if you've top roped a route, it feels different to lead it, that's one thing. The other is that when done right, what's left behind is a route that can offer a challenging onsite or redpoint to others, by which I mean other people can walk up and have that experience you love, just minus the "find the gear bit" if it's an otherwise unprotectable face. Finding the rests, working out sequences, moving up, backing down to a rest to recover, heading back out, it's still an engaging chess game even without a gear placement on the route. You're right, you can't have that if you've top roped a route beforehand, but others can. I don't know why others put up routes this way, because its a hell of a lot of hard work. I can tell you about why I do it sometimes.

 

I have a private climbing area that is just full of examples. The routes often exist as top ropes for awhile, a bunch of us discuss whether its worth setting up as a lead route, bolt location often happens by group conversation, taking into account things like where are the reasonable stances, what will you hit, and how to maintain an engaging route that merits repeat ascents yet someone can come up and onsight. Frankly, I think the first ascent process on this sort of thing is really fuzzy: who's the FA? The person who conceived of the line? The person who cleaned off anything loose? The person who first top roped it? The person who put in the bolts (often involves several people), the first person to redpoint it? It's all kind of silly and unimportant to me, because you're right, compared to walking up to a blank slate with no knowledge of what's there and climbing that unknown line successfully, the process I described is just playing around, no big deal. Out in Tenino anyway, I think the first climb of a route that has any significance is the first time (well, every time actually) someone walks up cold and onsights a route, and that always impresses the hell out of me.

 

The sort of climb you describe is analogous to a flash of artistic genius, a peak moment when skill, imagination, doubt, and experience combine for a truly memorable event. Its damned awesome to experience, no argument about that.

 

A sport route done well is something different, is an exercise in craftsmanship. Craft usually gets dissed by artists, but mastery and creation are present as well. The making of something durable and solid that others can appreciate for their own use is a different sort of reward. You've tried to explain it away as about ego and getting your name in the book, because you're viewing it from an artist's bias, which is a more selfish thing (note, it's okay to be selfish sometimes, I'm being descriptive not dismissive). Therefore, you think the FA on a sport route must be engaged in some pursuit of selfish pleasure, fame and glory, or whatever. You should consider that perhaps many are merely in pursuit of an interesting thing done well, they're craftsmen. Yeah, I know we can cherry pick some obvious contradictions to my hypothesis, but if I'm wrong, why are so many sport first ascensionists so damn shy? Where are they boasting about their glorious achievements? Guidebooks of yore were much more upfront about who did the FA, the brilliant artist wants full credit for their work of genius. Nowadays you're lucky to find a list in the back of the book, a move I believe was done to "diminish" ego as a motivation. It's kind of a pity too, because as in any craft, not all craftspeople are equal and some build inferior work. That is true of sport routes too, and with a little experience with workmanship, knowing who put up a route can tell you a bit about what to expect or watch out for.

 

Oh, and you had another question for the old farts about red, pink, and brown points. I'm sure you are fully cognizant of those distinctions, but I'll perform as invoked. Red we know is the climbing of a route without weighting the protection. Pink has been discarded by the elite as a designation these days, but it meant that all the draws were pre-installed on the bolts or the gear pre-placed, so all you had to do was clip your rope through the biner. I think it was a good bit of honesty about one's ascent, because if you're climbing at your limit, and a route is really hard for you, its definitely easier to just clip the draw or piece rather than place it yourself. People assert that the hardest routes today are much too hard today to clip the draw to the bolt and now call it a red point as well, but I think it just dumbs down the definition. Brown point is a derogatory term for just getting up a route by any means necessary, pulling gear, hanging, and generally pitching a fit. Used in a sentence, you would say, "I saw Ivan out at Beacon today and he made an ugly ugly brown point on Blownout."

 

Rap bolting can produce excellent climbs, no doubt. I've done a couple of bolted routes at Index which I know were rap bolted and I thought they were superb. My problem with rap bolting is that it's too easy. Routes tend to go in quickly and frequently, and anybody with a power drill and fresh batteries can do it. The result is exponentially increasing bolt density. Bolts tend to grow like weeds, and propogate just as effectively. As the number of purely bolted routes increases, so does the number of climbers who are attracted to these climbs. Some fraction of these climbers will then buy a drill and the cycle continues. I understand the attraction. You don't have to carry a rack, you don't have to fiddle with gear and worry that it won't hold. Every five feet there's another anchor that will hold 10,000 pounds which can make a guy feel very brave. I get it.

 

But what's not increasing exponentially is the amount of easily accessed rock suitable for climbing, and so grid bolting is inevitable. What's worse is that some climbers love the convenience of bolts so much, they'd prefer to see a bolt next to a crack rather than have to carry a large cam or trust a #3 RP. More bolts, followed by more climbers, followed by more bolts until just a couple of decades into this, an entire generation of climbs seems to have no problem with grid bolting, bolting routes that could be easily top roped, bolting next to cracks. Anybody who questions the current bolt density or blames it on rap bolting gets called "insane" by goofy guys like Kimmo.

 

 

[el jefe]

it was the "porker" bit, wasn't it?

 

it was probably the "porker" bit, kimmo. my guess is poor jake has become somewhat self-conscious about his burgeoning waistline, hence the puerile comments re: my mother. i didn't know a blow aimed at the belly could be so devastating.

 

come on, jake, it just means there more of you to love.

[olyclimber]

You dumbass, I have always been fat, just like rumor. You'll have to think of something else weaksauce.

[el jefe]

fat and eloquent, too. the level of discourse you are able to maintain is simply dazzling. who said having only a two digit IQ is a handicap? you, sir, are certainly a very capable cretin.

[olyclimber]

well i have to keep up with guys like you in the single digits. its hard work for a tubby like myself.