Zero Bolt Climbing Crag

[el jefe]

i thought when i heard you boast about being john frieh's "favorite partner" it meant you didn't like girls...

[el jefe]

face climbing is fun... fuck no bolts! no one cares about moolack for this reason and this elitist attitude ain't helpin your cause.

 

gotta go with corvallis on this one. the fact that there aren't any bolts at "the lack" is probably a sign of a lack of interest by the rest of the climbing community...

[ivan]

i have a very important opinion on this august subject

[el jefe]

it is about time we heard from you, ivan. please, grace us with your opinion which we presume is -- as always -- timely, subtle and incisive.

[ivan]

of all of the threads i have ever read, this one is, without a doubt, one of them

 

[el jefe]

bravo!

[Checat]

Seeing as there is a fair number of people in this state that take an extreme view towards bolting the shit out of every chunk of rock, I don't mind being the only one out there willing to take an extreme view towards not.

 

It doesn't take a whole lot of intelligence to bolt climbs but it requires a bit more for someone to show discretion and have some sense about developing climbing routes. You guys can keep bagging on me cause I'm pointing out that bolting practices in Oregon has gotten excessive because it only makes me realize more and more how much more it takes (knowledge, skill, experience and brass cahones) to climb at a place like moolack, and a sheer lack of all these things to frequent sport climbing venues...

 

I'm disappointed that corvallisclimb, after all these years, still wants to call me out for my views towards moolack because I think the way in which he develops routes at the menagerie sets a positive trend in bolting (on-lead or not), one more akin to the way routes were bolted at a better period of this states development history, one in which inherent risk was still part of the equation...

[Checat]

btw, what is so elitist about saying that not all climbing areas should see bolts?

[ivan]

elitists are, by their nature, few and far between, and given to lofty ideals - a small group - so to take a strong position held by just a few, by definition, makes you an elitest - that doesn't mean your bad though - some elitest are kewl, others are krackers!

[Ishmael]

This thread seems to have a bit of the "I have a secret crag" syndrome. And who really cares if there are no bolts or not... We have been climbing for a 100 years or so. I wonder how many of the pieces of stone that we have bolted will on or under the ground in the next 1000 years... just my 2 cents...

[ivan]

bolts make the baby jesus cry, and that makes me want to kill, kill, kill!!!

[Ishmael]

like all those evil bolts on the Green Dragon?

[Checat]

But if my "lofty ideal" is to make people at least consider that some climbing areas don't need bolts, and I don't want to keep that to myself but actually express that to others how am I being an elitist?

 

If you pick up what I'm throwing down you'll notice that I am promoting the area because of the great things that it offers. The only reason there is a bit of the "secret crag" language in how i've posted and responded is due to some irrational and outdated respect to those that developed routes there before I started developing there. I want to publish a guide on the area, I obviously have gotten over trying to keep it to myself...

 

Why are there so few people out there even willing to consider the notion of boltless climbing? Have climbers gotten that soft?

 

[el jefe]

sheshat is the krackers kind of elitist who started this whole thread just so he could tell everyone how kool is he for klimbing at moolack where the real he-men like him go climbing and anyone who still clips bolt lacks skill, brass cahones, etc. now he is annoyed because we aren't impressed with how awesome his crag is or how he-manly he is or whatever.

 

therefore:

 

i think it is just way beyond amazing that your crag has no bolts and that you guys are so far out cutting edge i plan to change my whole approach to climbing just because of your efforts to purify climbing and change the course of climbing history here in oregon. amazing geniuses who discovered that you can rap off of a tree! holy shit, what an amazing revelation. thank you for leading us all to salvation and away from the certain perdition that awaits anyone who clips another bolt after having heard word of the holy and sanctified bolt-free moolack and its patron saint, the benevolent checat and his apostle, powderhound.

 

amen.

[Ishmael]

yep, call me a plush toy... Oh, and it would be fine if it is bolt less... BRING IT ON...

[ivan]

like all those evil bolts on the Green Dragon?

i had to slay seven hoboes around a campfire in index to show my sorrow to the dread baby jesus lord and earn his forgiveness

[kevino]

So where is the crag? I don't care if there are bolts or not. I'll respect what was done before me and just want to climb.

[ivan]

 

Why are there so few people out there even willing to consider the notion of boltless climbing? Have climbers gotten that soft?

i would say that's the wrong conclusion to take from these humble 5 pages - i gather that most folks are fine w/ boltless climbing crags, but don't think that's particularily earth-shattering - crags are like chix - you're not too particuliar what they look like so long as you can have them good n' savage like

[billcoe]

Rough crowd here today.

 

Well, I think some of you can't see it cause you've never felt or experienced this. So here's one experience at another area in support of no bolts at this single place Cheecat is discussing.

 

Andrew and I were coming over Sonora pass last time back from the valley. Dave Hardin had let some of us Oregon climbers crash at his house in Sonora and the plan was to go climb some of the local rock at Lost World etc etc. We all thought this was a grand idea to have Dave as an unpaid guide as Royal Robbins had once hired him to guide and teach for his climbing class and we would be getting it free:-) Despite being old (our age) Dave is still putting up FAs in the area to 5.11 and he'd been leading in the 5.10 range in Yos when he'd come down to climb so it was super good all the way around as he knows the Sierras there like the back of his hand. As luck would have it, a huge tree had fallen over the road and we got locked out of Lost World, so we went down the way and did some small crag rock climbing. As we left, Dave had to get moving on, but thinking we'd been disappointed, he described to us a climbing area on the pass we should look for on the way home to get in another route or 2.

 

Sure as shit soon enough we see beautiful granite rock on top of the pass off to the left. It has none of the features he described though, so we drive on before doing a u-turn and heading back. We spy what may be a line or 2. After a bit of brush beating (and that was a curious thing as with all the cars on the road which should have been carrying climbers, and we are at an altitude where the brush would not grow back fast and there should have been some sign of human presence) we finally get to the base. There had been and still was no sign of human presence, in fact there appeared to still have some loose rock on the line we'd spotted form the road. However, we had a rack and a rope and had done all that brush beating.....Andrew was looking dubious but given I thought we should do something, he allows me the lead. We cranked up, I belayed off a tree that had no tat and there had been no evidence that anyone had ever been here -even the loose rock and gravel my feet scraped onto Andrew indicated such. Yet it was in sight of the car and a road which surely must have carried climbers over the pass to Yosemite all the time.

 

We went up and down and had a grand adventure. We saw nothing and we left nothing for the next party to see. It was the most memorable thing on the trip. Very very fun and an amazing feeling...did we do a First Ascent? Perhaps, perhaps not, not the point. Did that even matter? No, but we had a fun adventure. Real real genuine thing, and different from the great climbing we had done in the valley with topos and beta. Much more powerful feeling. Yet the little crack we'd run up would really have not been any more than a pimple on El Caps ass. Yet when I strain my mind and think of the yos climbing we did, I'm sure we did some classics -nothing stand out as starkly interesting and powerful as this thing. We did the 8 or so pitches Serenity/Sons of Yesterday in @ 3-1/2 hours up and down....with 3 people -pitching it out and no simulclimbing on this trip. Snake Dike too as one of our party had not done it and she wanted too....a bunch other classics as well, I'd bet.

 

So that's the magic. That's the point. Trying to leave the experience for the next person is what is going on at this crag. I didn't understand what Cheecat was getting at early on in this thread, perhaps now some of you can get see it or at least be a step closer to visualizing it. Instead of attacking him, maybe you can find some value in there someplace in having this type of thing still in the world ...someplace.

 

Warm regards all!

 

Bill

[kevino]

I liked that Bill. Thanks.

Edited April 9, 2009 by kevino

[powderhound]

well bill,

your honesty and knowledge are just one of the many reasons I love climbing with ya, hope we can keep it up. thanks for the insight. I would like to thank everyone else that has contributed to this discussion of sorts.

 

keep stoking the fire

 

ps. sorry if this reads not so well, I have consumed a couple PBR's

 

 

[billcoe]

well bill,

your honesty and knowledge are just one of the many reasons I love climbing with ya, hope we can keep it up. ......

 

ps. sorry if this reads not so well, I have consumed a couple PBR's

 

Same to ya on the first part sir! Now for the important part.

PBR? OMG! Bryan, bryan, bryan! My Man! I recoil in horror and have failed as a parent substitute if I have not conveyed to you that PBR is shit and drinking good beer: that is, basically any microbrew (oh noes, beer snob sighting here:-), is paramount to ones mental health!

 

 

I think a stint climbing and drinking in Germany, Italy and Spain should cure this malady and PBR sickness for you.

[corvallisclimb]

btw, what is so elitist about saying that not all climbing areas should see bolts?

 

Nothing, but the way you have presented the situation sort of comes off that way. Acting like you own Moolack and trying to spray that through this thread. I think its rad you are stoked on the boltless climbing, wich can be quite fun. But were talking about Moolack here wich to me is a crag. Its not some huge alpine wall. Its not in the wilderness. Most of the routes I gather require extensive cleaning on TR. Theres not much golden age history invovled with the place. So IMO Moolack doesnt really lend itself to this hard core no bolts gritstone ethical chest beating battle. I've learned its best not to try and dictate what other people do climbing, I mean its why we choose to climb right because of the freedom to do what YOU want. Just like you have the right to put up R rated routes on rappel with inconvenient anchors in a crag setting, why doesnt the next guy not have the right to put a couple bolts in on the face next door. The Menagerie lends itself to the ground up hand drilling ethic because its a wilderness, and well spires and summits need to be climbed from the ground up. But besides the laws and the terrain dictating the ethic, there isnt some climbing czar telling you how you have to put your route up. You might as well not out Moolack, because that only gets you closer to seeing bolts there. Its well enought known now that if someone really cared to climb like that I know they could figure it out. Thats kind of the thing this is climbing in the 21st century and most climbers don't go to a crag to try to push the limits of LNT climbing. If your really that concerned with LNT tactics at the crag I'm even more shocked you want to out the place. I hope you continue to put up routes in the style you choose, because its great to see the ethic still practicd. But I'm not going to cry at all if someone comes and bolts a line or just an anchor at Moolack.

[kevbone]

btw, what is so elitist about saying that not all climbing areas should see bolts?

 

Nothing, but the way you have presented the situation sort of comes off that way. Acting like you own Moolack and trying to spray that through this thread. I think its rad you are stoked on the boltless climbing, wich can be quite fun. But were talking about Moolack here wich to me is a crag. Its not some huge alpine wall. Its not in the wilderness. Most of the routes I gather require extensive cleaning on TR. Theres not much golden age history invovled with the place. So IMO Moolack doesnt really lend itself to this hard core no bolts gritstone ethical chest beating battle. I've learned its best not to try and dictate what other people do climbing, I mean its why we choose to climb right because of the freedom to do what YOU want. Just like you have the right to put up R rated routes on rappel with inconvenient anchors in a crag setting, why doesnt the next guy not have the right to put a couple bolts in on the face next door. The Menagerie lends itself to the ground up hand drilling ethic because its a wilderness, and well spires and summits need to be climbed from the ground up. But besides the laws and the terrain dictating the ethic, there isnt some climbing czar telling you how you have to put your route up. You might as well not out Moolack, because that only gets you closer to seeing bolts there. Its well enought known now that if someone really cared to climb like that I know they could figure it out. Thats kind of the thing this is climbing in the 21st century and most climbers don't go to a crag to try to push the limits of LNT climbing. If your really that concerned with LNT tactics at the crag I'm even more shocked you want to out the place. I hope you continue to put up routes in the style you choose, because its great to see the ethic still practicd. But I'm not going to cry at all if someone comes and bolts a line or just an anchor at Moolack.

 

 

:tup: :tup:

[Checat]

Its not my aim or place to "out" or "not out" moolack. i don't think talking about it on the web, or even putting it in print will change the number of people who go there. Other aspects of the area (distance, approach, gear require. etc...) keep the traffic out anyway.

 

The point I am trying to make is that Moolack can set a precedent for other future crags. What if the people that had been developing Spring Mtn. had known about boltless climbing? That would make two places in our great state that didn't require bolting, what a novel concept.

 

Wouldn't you like to think that people finding untouched rock similar to the formations at the Menagerie would look at the practices that have taken place there, and adopt those practices resulting in more "adventure-like" bolted lines? THey wouldn't do it because someone had a gun to there head, saying "You must bolt on lead," they'd adopt those practices because they had a model to operate off of...

 

I'm done feeling like Moolack has to be some "secret crag" to preserve the place from bolts. I think it has the ability to act as a model for other future crag development.

 

Is anyone picking up what I'm throwin down here?

 

Very early on in my climbing career I visited the Peak District, so for me that history is a part of our climbing heritage. Not everyone has that advantage, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be something that all climbers at least identify as an option within climbing.

 

Variety is the spice of life, but the bolt-less variety in Oregon is severely lacking and I have a hard time understanding why climbers of any experience level within climbing don't see the value of developing that ideal.