New topic on Israel

[G-spotter]

 

Not enough snafflehounds and too many nutz.

[Peter_Puget]

Perhaps Fatah and Israel are already working together: link.

 

Just another reason why the groovy guys in Hamas have been shooting Fatah members in the legs. (gotta slow 'em down but keep 'em around as examples)

[tvashtarkatena]

No one stated (well, OK, I didn't read the entire thread) that Israel is out to exterminate the Palestinians. Let's stick with what people actually posted, mkay?

 

I stated that Israel is using the Nazi tactic of creating a ghetto, and that is indisputable, given facts we seem to all agree on. JoshK, do you not agree that Israel has created a cordoned off ghetto where access to supplies is either very restricted or cut off entirely, and that this has been the case for quite some years now? How is this different than what the Nazis did, in any way other than severity, a difference I've already acknowledged?

 

This is not a case of "both share equal blame". There is blame on both sides, but Israel is overwhelmingly more powerful than the Palestinians. They have largely framed the situation that exists today.

Edited January 5, 2009 by tvashtarkatena

[snugtop]

America's self-interest?

 

What does this mean?

 

You can define this however you want. That's why I put the question out there.

 

Officially, it's the President, the State Dept. and Congress that define this through policy, treaties and law; but I know you know this and are just trying to be cute.

 

I started this thread because I didn't like the title of the last thread,and I started wondering if our support for Israel is meeting stated objectives. Popular arguments for our level of aid (which, unlike aid to say Pakistan, has been almost unconditional)include:

 

a) It will bring peace in the Middle East and deter would-be terrorists

b) Israel promotes democracy in the Middle East

c) We must defend it from annihilation from neighbors

d) We need to support for US economic interests in Israel

 

 

If it's a, we're clearly not even close to meeting this goal. Isreal, by developing nuclear weapons, has triggered an arms race in the region as countries like Iran (perhaps understandably) want the nuclear threat to defend themselves from hostile nations.

 

And then there's the mess in Palestine...I would argue that the situation is making America far more vulnerable as a terrorist target due to the overwhelming condemnation of Isreal's treatment of the Palestinians (and by extension the US)in the Muslim world (and beyond)

 

b) has this worked? What other democracies have emerged in the region? (And please don't say Iraq...)

 

c) I actually think this is legitimate. But the United States and other nations can pledge support to defend Israel without giving the huge amounts of aid we currently do. Israel is not a poor nation that needs handouts. We could come to their aid if their survival were threatened without committing to our current levels of economic aid, which in fact, are quite disproportionate to need if you look at what other countries get. Fairweather, you are wrong, Israel gets about 50% more than Egypt, and about 15 times more per capita. (This is official foreign assistance money, not addt’l remittances and unofficial aid such as military cooperation)

 

d) Same argument here. Canada and Mexico are much bigger trading partners, however we give Mexico much direct aid. Why the favoritism for a small, highly developed nation?

 

PS: In the process of correcting Fairweather's disinformation I just found out we gave 21 million to Iran last year. Who knew?

 

[Peter_Puget]

Not to be a smartass Sugtop but FW did not not limit himself to "economic" aid. Actually in the original post aid is not qualified at all it is simply called "funding.". Perhaps I am missing something but by doing so you might not be correcting FW. Also why not provide links to references.

What you'll wrote:

 

Is our continued funding of Israel really in America's self-interest?

 

I think we should cut off all aid of this kind, but last time I checked we give almost as much to Egypt as we do Israel.

[dmuja]

Maybe the Hamas folks really want peace

 

No, I really think the the Hamas core and leadership is likely at least as as bad as their press. Israel however (supported by the US) insures that Hamas (and --- extremists) continue to recruit and build their base through Israeli-apartheid policies and practicing war craft on Palestinian families.

 

Personally, I don't view---

12 year old rock throwing boys,

four year old girls and their eight year old sisters

(even those "forced" to stay in their targeted homes),

doctors and nurses treating wounded,

collage students gathered to wait for a bus,

nor even a group of civil police cadets at a graduation ceremony

as "core Hamas", or as legitimate targets, or even as "collateral damage."

 

I don't (can't) see these human beings as a means to an end.

Israel and its militaristic minded backers do (have done many times in the past) whether out of ignorance or malice. This is immoral, unethical, unjust, and wrong. Its also one of the major reasons why the "perpetual war" is.

 

Putting it bluntly, Israel ought to make Palestinian justice as much a priority as its own "self defense" is. Of coarse that sounds off the wall and even bizarre to those that subscribe to an "us or them" mind set - another thing to which "change" must come. So why Israel? Because for many and obvious reasons Israel has the best position to make it happen.

 

here are a few good reads..

 

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090112/shawn?rel=hp_currently

 

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090112/al_arian?rel=hp_picks

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/bruce-anderson/bruce-anderson-israel-is-in-danger-of-fighting-the-last-war-not-the-next-one-1225816.html

 

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090112/scheer2

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-the-true-story-behind-this-war-is-not-the-one-israel-is-telling-1214981.html

 

I don't agree btw with every thing in those links. Believe it or not I don't even "take sides" on this issue broadly speaking.

 

But when you justify slaughtering kids (whomever is doing the justifying) you and your views are "off the mark" because that in this world is a failure and will only increasingly be viewed as such.

[Hugh Conway]

Also why not provide links to references

 

Don't worry snugtop - we'll use the PP and FW standard of link based reference - any turd will do.

[Choada_Boy]

I wish someone would try pulling some genocide on my ass so that I could get a perpetual "do whatever I want because someone tried to pull genocide on my ass" card I could play in any situation. Plus, nothing warms my heart like pictures of dead kids. Keep up the good work Israel!!

[ivan]

"Israel: Hey, at least we're not as fucked up as the Congo!"

[snugtop]

FW is right that Egypt is a major recipient of aid but it's misleading because they have a population over ten times that of Israel. There's also a new 10-year 30B program for Israel.

 

Here's the link you requested: http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/101442.pdf

[Hugh Conway]

I wish someone would try pulling some genocide on my ass so that I could get a perpetual "do whatever I want because someone tried to pull genocide on my ass" card I could play in any situation. Plus, nothing warms my heart like pictures of dead kids. Keep up the good work Israel!!

 

OFFER NOT VALID IN BOSNIA, CONGO, OR RWANDA.

 

OFFER MIGHT POSSIBLY BE VALID IN ARMENIA, BUT THE CONSERVO-DOUCHEBAGS HATE PELOSI

[Hugh Conway]

FW is right that Egypt is a major recipient of aid but it's misleading because they have a population over ten times that of Israel.

 

Not only that but Egypts nominal GDP is smaller than that of Israel. Clearly Israel is in more need of monetary aid.

[snugtop]

More references (source: http://www.parade.com/news/intelligence-report/archive/who-gets-us-foreign-aid.html; they cite State Dept as primary source)

 

Who Gets US Foreign Aid?

 

1. Israel $2.4 billion Virtually all of this money is used to buy weapons (up to 75% made in the U.S.). Beginning in 2009, the U.S. plans to give $30 billion over 10 years.

 

2. Egypt $1.7 billion $1.3 billion to buy weapons; $103 million for education; $74 million for health care; $45 million to promote civic participation and human rights.

 

3. Pakistan $798 million $330 million for security efforts, including military-equipment upgrades and border security; $20 million for infrastructure.

 

4. Jordan $688 million $326 million to fight terrorism and promote regional stability through equipment upgrades and training; $163 million cash payment to the Jordanian government.

 

5. Kenya $586 million $501 million to fight HIV/AIDS through drug treatment and abstinence education and to combat malaria; $15 million for agricultural development; $5.4 million for programs that promote government accountability.

 

6. South Africa $574 million $557 million to fight TB and HIV/AIDS; $3 million for education.

 

7. Mexico $551 million Click here for details.

 

8. Colombia $541 million Click here for details.

9. Nigeria $491 million Click here for details.

10. Sudan $479 million Click here for details.

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Wow. That is amazing, and disturbing. I knew we were underwriting the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, but I didn't realize it was our number one foreign aid priority. We deserve our fair share of the blame for the continued violence, that's for sure. Thanks for the post.

[Peter_Puget]

Thanks Snug. Don;t think you are being a bit hard on FW. For example you wrote:

 

We could come to their aid if their survival were threatened without committing to our current levels of economic aid, which in fact, are quite disproportionate to need if you look at what other countries get. Fairweather, you are wrong, Israel gets about 50% more than Egypt, and about 15 times more per capita. (This is official foreign assistance money, not addt’l remittances and unofficial aid such as military cooperation)

 

You jumble up economic aid and all official assistance. It should be noted that we give more “economic” assistance to Egypt than to Israel. Further several years ago we gave even more to Egypt than was shown in your link. In 2004 the ratio of Egyptian aid to Israeli was 1.9/2.4. Given FW’s comment (I think we should cut off all aid of this kind, but last time I checked we give almost as much to Egypt as we do Israel.) I think he should be applauded for his accuracy rather than chastised for his "misinformation." In this forum he was certainly certainly no less misleading than you and appearently speaking off the cuff not after much internet research.

 

Oh yea: link

 

[Hugh Conway]

Thanks Snug. Don;t think you are being a bit hard on FW. For example you wrote:

 

We could come to their aid if their survival were threatened without committing to our current levels of economic aid, which in fact, are quite disproportionate to need if you look at what other countries get. Fairweather, you are wrong, Israel gets about 50% more than Egypt, and about 15 times more per capita. (This is official foreign assistance money, not addt’l remittances and unofficial aid such as military cooperation)

 

You jumble up economic aid and all official assistance. It should be noted that we give more “economic” assistance to Egypt than to Israel. Further several years ago we gave even more to Egypt than was shown in your link. In 2004 the ratio of Egyptian aid to Israeli was 1.9/2.4. Given FW’s comment (I think we should cut off all aid of this kind, but last time I checked we give almost as much to Egypt as we do Israel.) I think he should be applauded for his accuracy rather than chastised for his "misinformation." In this forum he was certainly certainly no less misleading than you and appearently speaking off the cuff not after much internet research.

 

Oh yea: link

 

Wow - more turd like microparsing from Peter Puget.

[tvashtarkatena]

The U.S. would be better off giving both Egypt and Israel's foriegn aid to me.

 

Sure, I'd blow it on crack whores, dollar slots, and ninja weapons, but that doesn't make my statement any less true.

[Fairweather]

The U.S. would be better off giving both Egypt and Israel's foriegn aid to me.

 

Sure, I'd blow it on crack whores, dollar slots, and ninja weapons, but that doesn't make my statement any less true.

 

as long as they are American whores doing American processed crack putting your American minted Ike's into American made slots the mechanical ones not those new fangled bandits with chinese boards inside and American swords made with American steel not that Hans u Hi tori shit they make in japan mmmhmmmm.

[snugtop]

PP (I like that moniker), to clarify, I'm using "economic aid" to mean "foreign assistance." As in "we give this much cash to these people."

[Choada_Boy]

Good Times!

 

[video:youtube]

[Choada_Boy]

2000lb Bomb + Most Densely Packed Population on Earth = (see above)

 

[video:youtube]

[Choada_Boy]

Precision! I'm sure the neighbors didn't hear a thing!!

 

[video:youtube]

[STP]

 

Is our continued funding of Israel really in America's self-interest?

 

I dunno, what's the mission of the NSA and the CIA?

[TheJiggler]

Is our continued funding of Israel really in America's self-interest?

 

I think we should cut off all aid of this kind, but last time I checked we give almost as much to Egypt as we do Israel.

 

I'm glad you have come to youor senses and come out against the War On Terror. Foreign assistance is of course one our most cost effective tools in said war.

[snugtop]

 

Is our continued funding of Israel really in America's self-interest?

 

I dunno, what's the mission of the NSA and the CIA?

 

To collect signals intelligence, human intelligence, operations (enhanced interrogations fit in there somehow...) and analysis. Next question?