Legacy Review

[AlpineK]

[img:center]http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20081221/cartoon20081221.jpg[/img]

[tvashtarkatena]

Feaux cowboy trying to do a man's job.

[ivan]

i'm starting to think this bush character may not be such a good president for us...

[pc313]

He's a FUCKING

[STP]

Greenwald: "One of things that often gets overlooked because these programs (Guantanamo, extraordinary rendition, etc.) are typically blamed on the Bush Administration - and rightfully so since they are the ones who conceived of it and first implemented - it is the extent of the complicity on the part of leading congressional democrats..."

Maddow: "Bingo"

Greenwald: "in most of these programs."

 

Greenwald: "Not only were they briefed on it, people like Nancy Pelosi, Jane Harmon and Jay Rockefeller were briefed that we were torturing, that we were eavesdropping illegally. In many cases they did nothing about it. Often they assented actively to these programs."

 

Greenwald: "You also have a whole series of laws that have been passed with the aid of the democrats and even with the democrats in control of congress to authorize things like the military commissions and to immunize the people in our government who have broken the law and violated international treaties."

 

Greenwald: "And so the fact that the leading house Democrat on the intelligence committee (Sylvester Reyes) is urging that the CIA Director. and the Director of National Intelligence, the people who have overseen these programs that have done such damage to our country, urging that they be retained and that some of these programs be maintained by Obama is not surprising. Many of these Democrats have given full-throated support to a lot of these programs even as they try to keep the blame on the Bush Administration."

 

-- http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/12122008/watch.html

[STP]

I honestly don't believe all the items depicted in that cartoon are the result of Bush's policies. Maybe it's more the sense of Bush's unilateralism or the audacity of his actions.

 

Seems the looming problems facing us are global in nature: the financial crisis, climate change, terrorism, etc. Many of those things were undercurrents which probably would have caught a Gore or Kerry administration as well. Consider also Congress' role.

 

There's much to be said for convention but our times appear to represent a turning point where the rules have changed to reflect a changing world. More importantly, when one is faced with a "black swan" (a highly improbable event having immense repercussions) then what's the right response? We should be forward looking, not focused too much on what has already happened. "It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards."

 

As an aside, if you're into metaphysics, then one could view our time as a kairos, in English, a watershed moment. Also, anamnesis is another odd but opportune idea.

[Fairweather]

http://www.edmunds.com/subaru/legacy/2008/review.html

[tvashtarkatena]

I honestly don't believe all the items depicted in that cartoon are the result of Bush's policies. Maybe it's more the sense of Bush's unilateralism or the audacity of his actions.

 

Seems the looming problems facing us are global in nature: the financial crisis, climate change, terrorism, etc. Many of those things were undercurrents which probably would have caught a Gore or Kerry administration as well. Consider also Congress' role.

 

There's much to be said for convention but our times appear to represent a turning point where the rules have changed to reflect a changing world. More importantly, when one is faced with a "black swan" (a highly improbable event having immense repercussions) then what's the right response? We should be forward looking, not focused too much on what has already happened. "It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards."

 

As an aside, if you're into metaphysics, then one could view our time as a kairos, in English, a watershed moment. Also, anamnesis is another odd but opportune idea.

 

Not all the items in the cartoon, but certainly most of them. Anything having to do with raping the Constitution, Iraq, and our national failure re: Katrina can be traced directly back to Bush's actions. Inaction on the part of Congress does nothing to mitigate or spread the blame here.

 

As for the economic stuff, that's more a product of Republican inspired deregulation, cronyism, and the elevation of greed to a virtue. Bush didn't invent it, he just ran with to the best of his abilities.

 

Incredibly, Bush is just now admitting that he 'might' have made some mistakes. Even more incredibly, Cheney still professes that they did the right thing every step of the way.

 

The final blame in all of this rests with the ignorance and apathy of the American voter: those who put these spoiled frat boys in power, and those who failed to prevent them from taking power by either voting for some fringe totalitarian like Nader or by staying home on election day.

 

There are those cynics among us who blame 'the system' for our troubles. Capitalism, American democracy, the two party system, the song and dances vary, but the point is the same. It's not 'individuals' who are to blame, but 'isms'.

 

Um...bullshit. Our system is as good as any. It works to stem totalitarianism, perhaps too late, but what human run system does exactly the right thing without consequences?

 

Individuals ARE to blame for the massive, tragic failures of this administration. Those who made the decisions, those who stood by and let them be made without opposition, and those who voted for all of it. Individuals ARE the system.

Edited December 22, 2008 by tvashtarkatena

[STP]

There was a saying in old Rome: "Senatores boni viri, senatus bestia" (The senators are good men, the Senate is a beast.")

 

So I guess I agree wit ya but the system is greater than the individual.

[dmuja]

...We should be forward looking, not focused too much on what has already happened. "It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards."

 

Those who forget the past are ......

 

Id like to see him (and Cheney too) arrested and tried.

 

These clowns were the "leaders" in charge when the bus went over the edge. The bus drivers that almost killed a bunch of people in downtown Seattle the other day face legal charges and nobody even died.

 

Bush and Cheney "lead" not only our country, but much of the world toward disaster and they did this (arguably) illegally - with gross negligence at best and gross intent at worst. Sure they may have had accomplices but that doesn't mean they are all equally culpable.

 

Anyone who believes "it doesn't matter who we vote into office" should plaster this toon to their forehead

[Bug]

Having worked with several Senators and congresspeople, I don't think most of them are "good" or "honest".

I think the voters have failed to go beyond the soundbite to get to the heart of the issues. This results in election by marketing vs election by informed voters. What we get has very little to do with what we thought we were voting for.

 

In short, we need to constantly write our congress people to pass real Campaign Finance reform laws, Lobbying LAWS, and hold each other accountable rather than cover each others butts.

[STP]

mkay, it'll never happen since there's bipartisan complicity.

[tvashtarkatena]

The system is not greater than the individual. In many cases, and the Bush presidency is a classic example, the individual creates the system.

 

If we agree that the rule of law is 'a system', and that the Constitution is a central part of that system, then Bush certainly and repeatedly circumvented that system, primarily through Executive Orders. He simply ignored it. He was not 'forced' by any system to do so; they were executed completely at his discretion. (Assuming that we can agree that myth of a 'puppet president' is just another progressive masturbation fantasy). History is full of similar examples.

 

'Systems' are, by nature, static. They are continually challenged in a dynamic world by the unpredictability of individual action.

 

 

[STP]

Having worked with several Senators and congresspeople, I don't think most of them are "good" or "honest".

I think the voters have failed to go beyond the soundbite to get to the heart of the issues. This results in election by marketing vs election by informed voters. What we get has very little to do with what we thought we were voting for.

 

In short, we need to constantly write our congress people to pass real Campaign Finance reform laws, Lobbying LAWS, and hold each other accountable rather than cover each others butts.

 

Yeah, how many people are actually motivated by something other than money and power? Really?

 

But that wasn't my point. Rather, how much influence does an individual actually exhibit in the face of history? Sure, Mahatma Gandhi, etc but what we're really seeing are movements (memes).

[STP]

The whole realm of the 'unlawful enemy combatant' implies the Geneva Conventions do not apply. Also, there is a basis written into the Constitution for war powers of the Executive. Not that I agree with it.

[tvashtarkatena]

Movements or memes or whatever you'd like to call them are, each and every one, nothing more than an invention by an individual that became popular.

 

History is simply the story of individual humans interacting with each other and the natural world. It's only after the fact that we can begin to carve it into larger, smoother chunks and place it into properly labeled boxes for convenient storage.

Edited December 22, 2008 by tvashtarkatena

[STP]

I rather like the saying: History..."is a tale told by idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

 

W. Shakespeare, Macbeth, 5. 5

[tvashtarkatena]

The whole realm of the 'unlawful enemy combatant' implies the Geneva Conventions do not apply. Also, there is a basis written into the Constitution for war powers of the Executive. Not that I agree with it.

 

This isn't the forum to impart a more complete understanding of the development of 'UEC' status, but, I'll try to put out some crib notes.

 

Unlawful Enemy Combatant status, in the current sense, was wholly a Bush administration invention. Bush took a WWII differentiation between innocents and combatants (necessary when operating in areas populated by civilians) and bastardized it into an excuse to strip a human beings of all of their human rights without due process via misuse of the power of executive order. In addition, there can be no 'implication' that Common Article 3 of the Geneva conventions 'does not apply', as it explicitly prohibits mistreatment, including humiliation, of any captured combatant anywhere, anytime. As a ratified treaty, Article 3 is not a 'guideline', but federal law. As I'm sure you're aware, the Supreme Court has already rejected this 'implication of non-application' argument.

[STP]

 

General Provisions of the First Three Common Articles

Common Article 2

"the relationship between the "High Contracting Parties" and a non-signatory, the party will remain bound until the non-signatory no longer acts under the strictures of the convention. "

 

But yeah, I guess since we're a nation governed by laws then we should honor them even the other party is not necessarily bound by them.

[tvashtarkatena]

Whether or not other parties violate Article 3 is irrelevant. We, as a nation, are bound by rule of law and morality to abide by the following:

 

 

 

ARTICLE 3

In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

 

(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed ' hors de combat ' by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

 

(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

 

(b) taking of hostages;

 

© outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;

 

(d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

 

(2) The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.

 

An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.

The Parties to the conflict should further endeavour to bring into force, by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of the present Convention.

The application of the preceding provisions shall not affect the legal status of the Parties to the conflict.

 

 

Thus, the 'waterboarding debate' and all the other discussions of what is 'OK' to do to detainees and what is not are bullshit. All of it has been clearly prohibited by our laws from Day 1.

 

There are still over 250 people who've never been charged with any crime being tortured at Quantanamo as I write this. We don't know who those people are, why they're rotting in our prison, and whether or not they pose any threat to our nation. Disgusting.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2008 by tvashtarkatena

[STP]

Regarding these issues, I believe as constitutional scholar, Glenn Greenwald, does. I'm just trying to understand how we got to where we are and where we're headed.

 

Cheney says top congressional Democrats complicit in spy

 

"...do not let your left hand know what your right hand does, for it is not worth knowing."

--Henry David Thoreau, Walden; or, Life in the Woods, 1854

 

There is compartmentalization. If you knew the hidden history, the covert actions behind the pretense, you'd rightly be appalled.

[tvashtarkatena]

Well, Cheney's veracity on any subject is a bit 'suspect' these days, but I don't doubt that some members of Congress were less surprised than others when the NYT came out with the domestic spying story.

 

Congress has not been a good steward of our constitution during the Bush years, but it was Bush that came up with the program to begin with. After all, it was Congress who voted to unburden ourselves of the right of habeaus corpus, the ability to try telecom companies that grossly and illegally violate our privacy laws, and on and on....Where there are leaders, there are always followers.

 

The president has tremendous power to set the tone of governance and guide the actions of congress. Hopefully, Obama will send a strong message that our constitution is the core of what it means to be an American and thus something to be proud of, not an inconvenience to be circumvented on the road to unchecked power.

 

The ACLU is asking Pres elect Obama to do three things by executive order on Day 1 of taking office (in addition to a host of other things afterward):

 

Order Guantanamo closed and the prisoners tried or released in a safe manner.

Order the end of Extraordinary Rendition.

Order the end of torture by our government.

 

Edited December 22, 2008 by tvashtarkatena

[Fairweather]

There are still over 250 people who've never been charged with any crime being tortured at Quantanamo as I write this. We don't know who those people are, why they're rotting in our prison, and whether or not they pose any threat to our nation. Disgusting.

 

 

"...being tortured as I write this." Please.

 

With the exception of the Jose Padilla case, I don't think Bush has stepped over the constitutional line at all. Intent/spirit? Maybe. But not the letter.

 

I wonder if your hero, FDR, would treat these inmates any better. Actually, we need not wonder at all:

 

http://www.historynet.com/world-war-ii-german-saboteurs-invade-america-in-1942.htm/2

 

"Roosevelt realized that neither the death penalty nor secrecy could be guaranteed in a civilian trial, so he issued a proclamation that established a military tribunal consisting of seven generals, the first to be convened in the United States since Lincoln’s assassination. The prosecutor was Attorney General Francis Biddle. The chief defense lawyer was Colonel Kenneth Royall, a distinguished attorney in civilian life and later President Harry Truman’s secretary of war.

 

The trial, which was held in secret at the Justice Department, occupied most of the month of July 1942. Biddle accused the Germans of coming to America to wreak havoc and death, basing his accusations on their own confessions. The would-be saboteurs pleaded innocence, denounced Hitler and insisted they had had no intention of actually engaging in sabotage.

 

The prosecution asked for the death penalty, the punishment required of spies during wartime, but it had a hard time making its case against Dasch and Burger, who had confessed so quickly and collaborated so completely.

 

On July 27, the defense rested. The seven generals quickly prepared a report and sent it–and the 3,000-page trial transcript–to Roosevelt who, under his proclamation, was responsible for determining the time and place of execution if that was the tribunal’s sentence. Now, finally, Roosevelt found out exactly how Hoover had managed to catch the saboteurs so quickly. He never made any public comment about it, however.

 

On August 8, six of the eight German agents were electrocuted at the District Jail in Washington, D.C. Burger was sentenced to hard labor for life; Dasch was given 30 years. "

 

 

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Needless to say, citing human rights abuses and transgressions against our constitution long past does nothing to excuse them today. FDR may have been one of the 3 most influential presidents in our history, but he is not my hero, BTW. Hero worship is an indulgence in self reinforcing fantasy. People can and should be admired for their actions, but heroes belong in comic books.

 

And what you believe, given your track record of 'accuracy', your oft espoused support of torture and imprisonment without probable cause or due process, and the proponderance of vetted public information that has refuted nearly every one of your assertions here, isn't exactly going to gain much of a following; here, or anywhere else. Your openly racist motivations for such beliefs don't help much either.

 

For anyone interested in learning more about the torture regimen practiced by US personnel at Guantanamo Bay, "The Road to Quantanamo", a documentary about 3 innocent British citizens who were detained there for years and finally released under pressure from their government, is an excellent if disturbing resource. NETFLIX has it.

 

In addition to the grim first hand reports of abuse from Guantanamo from released detainees, the numbers speak for themselves regarding the injustice there. Over 800 people have been detained at Guantanamo. Over 500 have been released without any charges: after being tortured for years. Of all the detainnees at Guantanamo, fewer than 20 have ever been charged with any crime.

 

Googling Khaled Al Masri will bring up the case of an innocent German citizen who was kidnapped, taken to Afghanistan, and tortured by US and other personnel. One of many. Extraordinary Rendition is another secretive program that must end immediately if America is to regain its moral footing and stem the now widespread hatred of our country.

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2008 by tvashtarkatena

[tvashtarkatena]

It's interesting to note that the few Gitmo detainees who are being 'tried' by our government are being subjected to the military commission system, a kangaroo court that accepts hearsay evidence, does not allow the accused to review the evidence against them, and allows evidence gained under torture, even if that tortured was inflicted by non-US personnel in another country without US personnel present. The ACLU is asking Pres Elect Obama to end this travesty and try these detainees either in criminal courts or courts martial.

Edited December 23, 2008 by tvashtarkatena