Positives of Bush

[mattp]

I agree with you that the problems with bad guys in Afghanistan and Pakistan is not going to go away easily, Bill, but I am less than hopeful that Obama or anybody else including Alkatete here can "solve" the problem.

 

[minx]

positives? hmmm...he looks like a kiebler elf and that alwasy made me laugh.

[prole]

Sales for Truck Nutz were at an all-time high!

[Bug]

I agree with you that the problems with bad guys in Afghanistan and Pakistan is not going to go away easily, Bill, but I am less than hopeful that Obama or anybody else including Alkatete here can "solve" the problem.

 

Go get em Akhalete.

I understand attacking the people who gave us 911.

I also think it was unwise to let the buildup in Pakistan continue for so long.

We should have been in there in the first year.

Certainly before invading Iraq.

We would have had the backing of most of the world.

Now we have spent that diplomatic capital in Iraq and have a much bigger and better entrenched enemy in Pakistan.

[akhalteke]

Hey Matt. Difference between you and me: You talk about trying to make a difference on the internet. I get shot trying to make a difference in the World's dirtiest sand box.

[mattp]

Hey big man: I am in awe. I bow to your obvious superiority.

[Braydon]

Hey Matt. Difference between you and me: You talk about trying to make a difference on the internet. I get shot trying to make a difference in the World's dirtiest sand box.

 

Actions speak louder than words.

[pc313]

He can go home to the arms of his dad knowing that no matter how bad he fucked the dogshit out of us all,his father will sill love him!!

[akhalteke]

Hey big man: I am in awe. I bow to your obvious superiority.

 

Noted.

[mattp]

Let me know when you win the war, huh?

[akhalteke]

Let me know when you stop talking about making a difference on cc.com and start doing something constructive to do so.

[JosephH]

1) Increasing aid to Africa

 

2) Preventing wars in India/Pakistan

 

3) Dealing with N. Korea/ Libya re: Nuclear programs

 

4) Taking out many of Al Queda's top leadership and driving them underground.

 

5) Reduced Farm subsidies.

 

6) Ousted Saddam, a tyranical dictator.

 

7) No attacks since 9/11/01

 

 

Only #1 and the latter half of #3 are a) true, b) attributable to Bush and c) positives. And the latter of these driven entirely by and for the interests of friends of Cheney's in the oil industry.

 

Whatever you think the motivations are, they are positive for our country and in some instances those outside this country.

 

#1 is true, as is the largest conservation set-aside in the Pacific

 

But...

 

- #2 isn't true

- The first part of #3 has essentially been a glaring failure by the standard of Repub/Bush criticisims of the Clinton efforts

- our approach to #4 has simply generated 10 new leaders for every fallen one, and tens of new terrorists daily across the ME;

- total farm subsidies mentioned in #5 are nearly the same levels as when Bush took office and much of it simply shifted from 'food' to 'energy' subsidies

- #6, definitely not a positive. Could have done that with a Predator and a bit of patience with far fewer of the glaring global negatives which are the war in Iraq

- #7 You're right is largely a result of Buh's "contributions"; i.e. OBL accomplished goals beyond his wildest dreams simply using Bush and the neocons as a proxy - through them he inflicted endless damage on this nation - "mission accomplished". And being the type of guy he clearly is he won't bother until he can produce something orders of magnitude more dramatic then the last attack.

[mattp]

Let me know when you stop talking about making a difference on cc.com and start doing something constructive to do so.

Let me know when you figure out that you are not god's gift to humanity just because you signed up for the military. You deserve to be proud of your choices; suggesting that anybody who doesn't make the same choices as you has and will not make any difference in this world is weak.

[akhalteke]

It is clear that you will throw the baby out with the bathwater. The guy was a fuck-up but he did accomplish some things. It is a sure sign of a radical that he cannot see any good in his opponents. Say hi to the che poster on your wall homey.

[tvashtarkatena]

Shrill rhetoric aside, I don't think the situation in Afghanistan/Pakistan matters much in any real sense. I'd like to see success in Afghanistan, but it's a 'nice to have', not a 'must have'.

 

Are you kidding me? The major kingpins of a major terrorist group hell-bent on our destruction lie on that border and you think it would just be nice to win? The only thing keeping those men from terrorizing the US is the men keeping them in holes in Afghanistan.

 

That's good PR, but it's not believable. If we left Afghanistan today, our security picture would change little. Afghanistan and Pakistan's security picture would likely change, in both directions, but whatever happened would stay mostly regional.

I know you want a solid justification for your career choice. Who doesn't? But you're arguing from a purely emotional level, with all the flowery 'men in foxholes' rhetoric that is supposed tug at our patriotic heart strings, but it's not one based on any semblance of reality.

 

There are 'major terrorist' groups all over the world. Afghanistan is just one of many, many places. They're all over Africa, the Middle East, Central and Southern Asia. Nearly all of them profess to hate the U.S. We have little or no presence in most of those places, and it doesn't really matter much. Our security picture remains about the same. The idea of U.S. forces policing the entire world is impossible, impracticable, and mostly a sales job to keep military expenditures sacrosact.

[akhalteke]

Let me know when you stop talking about making a difference on cc.com and start doing something constructive to do so.

Let me know when you figure out that you are not god's gift to humanity just because you signed up for the military. You deserve to be proud of your choices; suggesting that anybody who doesn't make the same choices as you has and will not make any difference in this world is weak.

 

Oh I didn't Matt. I suggested that a middle aged man that has little else to do with his time but try and belittle an injured soldier for doing everything he knows how to do is beyond weak. I don't think signing up for the military is anything at all. Everyone should have to do it as far as I am concerned; at least peace corps or whatever your poison may be.

 

I'll keep doing your government's dirty work and you keep...doing...whatever you do to make this world a better place. Say hi to blueberry for me. I used to live near there.

[tvashtarkatena]

Hey Matt. Difference between you and me: You talk about trying to make a difference on the internet. I get shot trying to make a difference in the World's dirtiest sand box.

 

Wow. We're all so very impressed down here. Because if you're not in uniform, you don't matter, is that how that goes?

 

"Put silver wings, on my son's chest

ta da da da!"

 

Thanks for losing two wars against third world foes simultaneously and blowing a trillion dollars while you were at it, big bad soldier boy.

 

 

[akhalteke]

Shrill rhetoric aside, I don't think the situation in Afghanistan/Pakistan matters much in any real sense. I'd like to see success in Afghanistan, but it's a 'nice to have', not a 'must have'.

 

Are you kidding me? The major kingpins of a major terrorist group hell-bent on our destruction lie on that border and you think it would just be nice to win? The only thing keeping those men from terrorizing the US is the men keeping them in holes in Afghanistan.

 

That's good PR, but it's not believable. If we left Afghanistan today, our security picture would change little. Afghanistan and Pakistan's security picture would likely change, in both directions, but whatever happened would stay mostly regional.

I know you want a solid justification for your career choice. Who doesn't? But you're arguing from a purely emotional level, with all the flowery 'men in foxholes' rhetoric that is supposed tug at our patriotic heart strings, but it's not one based on any semblance of reality.

 

There are 'major terrorist' groups all over the world. Afghanistan is just one of many, many places. They're all over Africa, the Middle East, Central and Southern Asia. Nearly all of them profess to hate the U.S. We have little or no presence in most of those places, and it doesn't really matter much. Our security picture remains about the same. The idea of U.S. forces policing the entire world is impossible, impracticable, and mostly a sales job to keep military expenditures sacrosact.

 

So you are telling me that the concentration of terrorists in Afghanistan/Pakistan is pretty well the same world wide?

 

That would be a scary proposition man. I don't think you can grasp the amazing amounts of people that would wish you dead on this earth if that were the case.

 

Truth: Terrorists are coming from every country in the World to fight the great White Satan in Afghanistan/Iraq. I have seen passports from dzs. of countries.

 

Q: If their preoccupation there were to disappear, what would prevent them from planning another attack? The intelligence system that you on this very site so vehemenently attack? Please.

 

 

You don't think there will be any retaliation if this job is left unfinished? Think about it.

 

Matt. I wish we didn't even get involved in this war. We did. Now we have to pay the consequences. We can either deal with this now or deal with it later. I hate fighting but would rather take care of it myself than let my son do my dirty work for me.

 

 

 

[prole]

Invading Iraq under false pretenses, botching the job by either having no plan or a applying a neolib cookie cutter plan, forking over billions to crony corporations, facilitating ethnic cleansing then calling it victory, cutting deals with Iran to cover you ass, EQUALS "Making the world a better place", "making a difference", "doing our dirty work". You're proof positive that boot camp indoctrination works: you're a robot. Congratulations.

[akhalteke]

Hey Matt. Difference between you and me: You talk about trying to make a difference on the internet. I get shot trying to make a difference in the World's dirtiest sand box.

 

Wow. We're all so very impressed down here. Because if you're not in uniform, you don't matter, is that how that goes?

 

"Put silver wings, on my son's chest

ta da da da!"

 

Thanks for losing two wars against third world foes simultaneously and blowing a trillion dollars while you were at it, big bad soldier boy.

 

 

Who lost a war bud? Last I read, violence is down in Iraq, more than 3/4 of the country is already handed over to the Iraqis.

 

I don't remember spending trillions of dollars. That is a lot of .556 hoss.

[akhalteke]

Invading Iraq under false pretenses, botching the job by either having no plan or a applying a neolib cookie cutter plan, forking over billions to crony corporations, facilitating ethnic cleansing then calling it victory, cutting deals with Iran to cover you ass, EQUALS "Making the world a better place", "making a difference", "doing our dirty work". You're proof positive that boot camp indoctrination works: you're a robot. Congratulations.

 

I didn't do any of that kiddo. Your elected government did. It is up to you to get a government in that is competent to deploy me as they see fit; hopefully in a well educated and tactical manner.

 

I did my part. You do yours.

[pc313]

I cant understand how anybody can sign away their rights to be free by joining the armed forces witch is a form of slavery! If you want to ware a uniform and carry a gun become cop,if your boss is a political assfuck and desides to order you on a suicide missions you can quit. And the pay is 5+ times more!

[Bug]

Let me know when you win the war, huh?

Go easy on him Matt.

He needs his dad's approval.

[Bug]

Let me know when you stop talking about making a difference on cc.com and start doing something constructive to do so.

You don't know Matt.

You are making a fool of yourself.

Whether or not you agree with Matt he has done more for the cascade climbing community than the vast majority of the people on this board put together.

[prole]

Invading Iraq under false pretenses, botching the job by either having no plan or a applying a neolib cookie cutter plan, forking over billions to crony corporations, facilitating ethnic cleansing then calling it victory, cutting deals with Iran to cover you ass, EQUALS "Making the world a better place", "making a difference", "doing our dirty work". You're proof positive that boot camp indoctrination works: you're a robot. Congratulations.

 

I didn't do any of that kiddo. Your elected government did. It is up to you to get a government in that is competent to deploy me as they see fit; hopefully in a well educated and tactical manner.

 

I did my part. You do yours.

 

Except you're the douche-bag that's making moral judgments about what it is that you've been pawned into doing. Either own up to what's been done and stand by it or pull the good soldier/just following orders bit and STFU. You can't have it both ways.