[TR] Beacon Rawk - The Bar 9/20/2008

[denalidave]

ya i'll be there one way or another. riverside looks fun except for the jungle after halfway.

I can get out early but have to leave again by 1 so as not to be late for the Chuck E Cheese party at 2 in da couve. Let me know.

 

Anyone up for a few pitches this evening? 4:30 ish?

[pink]

ya i'll be there one way or another. riverside looks fun except for the jungle after halfway.

 

riverside is classic, great position hence the name. have fun......

[JosephH]

Seems kinda funny how JH worked really hard replacing anchors simply to let the park service know that the climbers can manage the climbing area ourselves.....yet we have to ask them to add or replace a bolt.

 

Kevin, real close!

 

The thinking behind the Anchor Replacement Project, was first and foremost to show locals are willing to vest time, energy, and resources in the place - to establish 'ownership'. Second, to provide some functional working basis - along with the Pre-Open Work Sessions and Peregrine Monitoring - for a relationship with the BRSP (WSP, WDFW, and Railroad) based on more than just talk. And third, to establish in a concrete way, acknowledged by those agencies of record, that locals are the primary goto source on issue involving climbing at Beacon (by virtue of demonstrable active participation, currency of knowledge, and maintenance track record).

 

"Manage the climbing area ourselves" is probably a little strong given the reality that WA state law dictates the BRSP manage climbing at Beacon via the CMP. Again, the idea from day one has been to [re]establish that locals are the goto partner in that respect - and not just because we're the 'locals', but rather by virtue of actively 'earning' a place [back] at the table due to our efforts to take a broad active role in the management of climbing out there.

 

Revising the CMP has been stalled out due to BRSP staffing issues, but will be getting back underway and likely our new BRSP Ranger, Ben, will be tasked with some responsibility in that regard given his expressed interest in climbing. Some of the CMP groundwork has already been laid in the development and current use of a new 'Fixed Protection Application'. What has changed in this application (with regard to new routes) is that rather than an application for each piece of fixed pro - which is what the previous CMP required, the new application operates on a per route basis. You provide a digital photo with the proposed line marked up on it and a summary of it's location and likely use of fixed pro (with the idea Beacon traditions will be preserved) and then your proposal will be reviewed by the BRSP, Lisa Lantz the WSP SW Region Resource Steward (she 'owns' Beacon in every respect), and it will be peer reviewed by other Beacon climbers. After you put up the climb you backfill the application with exactly what fixed pro went in if any (I still have to backfill an application for what we ended up actually doing on the recent 'Wind Walker' maintenance with Mark). So far only the first two review steps are in place while the CMP is in limbo and until a Climbers' Advisory Board can be reconstituted and reconvened - the point of all my efforts has been to insure Beacon Locals have a prominent place at that particular table when the time comes.

 

To-date, I (with the 'Menopause' line above 'Rythmn Method') and Shane (with 'Head Case', 'Siege Tactics', and a couple of other great NW Face lines) have both been through the application process and it's painless, relatively quick, and not an obstacle in any way to getting things done. Any 'new' activity - routes or individual pieces of fixed pro - need to be reviewd by Lisa Lantz, whereas replacement-only efforts of limit scope can be approved by the BRSP. A 'big' replacement program of protection bolts would require a serious sitdown with Erik and the BRSP staff and would likely have to be run by Lisa as well, but could probably be done if folks got organized and worked with the process.

 

So on 'Second Wind', I'd say if you're serious, then you should fill out an application stating your proposal is for replacement-only of existing bolts on the climb, which I suspect Erik would approve almost as soon as he gets it. As Bill said, I'd be willing to help out and would also be happy to donate SS bolts and hangers to the effort. I am pretty good at getting the old bolts out and camo'ing holes if any are left behind. And seeing all the old South Face column routes back in action has been a big goal of what work I have done so I'm really psyched to see you guys getting after them all week in, week out - now that's the damn spirit!!!

 

P.S. Ivan, those old buttonhead ladder bolts of McGowan's are incredibly hard, not sure what they are made of but those buttonheads will still be rock solid long after the hangers have rusted off them, and they are a monsterous bitch to get out, even with the tuning forks.

[billcoe]

Kevin, I didn't give you the full answer I was thinking, I'll do it later and add onto what Joseph just said in the dissertation above.

[kevbone]

Seems kinda funny how JH worked really hard replacing anchors simply to let the park service know that the climbers can manage the climbing area ourselves.....yet we have to ask them to add or replace a bolt.

 

Kevin, real close!

 

The thinking behind the Anchor Replacement Project, was first and foremost to show locals are willing to vest time, energy, and resources in the place - to establish 'ownership'. Second, to provide some functional working basis - along with the Pre-Open Work Sessions and Peregrine Monitoring - for a relationship with the BRSP (WSP, WDFW, and Railroad) based on more than just talk. And third, to establish in a concrete way, acknowledged by those agencies of record, that locals are the primary goto source on issue involving climbing at Beacon (by virtue of demonstrable active participation, currency of knowledge, and maintenance track record).

 

"Manage the climbing area ourselves" is probably a little strong given the reality that WA state law dictates the BRSP manage climbing at Beacon via the CMP. Again, the idea from day one has been to [re]establish that locals are the goto partner in that respect - and not just because we're the 'locals', but rather by virtue of actively 'earning' a place [back] at the table due to our efforts to take a broad active role in the management of climbing out there.

 

Revising the CMP has been stalled out due to BRSP staffing issues, but will be getting back underway and likely our new BRSP Ranger, Ben, will be tasked with some responsibility in that regard given his expressed interest in climbing. Some of the CMP groundwork has already been laid in the development and current use of a new 'Fixed Protection Application'. What has changed in this application (with regard to new routes) is that rather than an application for each piece of fixed pro - which is what the previous CMP required, the new application operates on a per route basis. You provide a digital photo with the proposed line marked up on it and a summary of it's location and likely use of fixed pro (with the idea Beacon traditions will be preserved) and then your proposal will be reviewed by the BRSP, Lisa Lantz the WSP SW Region Resource Steward (she 'owns' Beacon in every respect), and it will be peer reviewed by other Beacon climbers. After you put up the climb you backfill the application with exactly what fixed pro went in if any (I still have to backfill an application for what we ended up actually doing on the recent 'Wind Walker' maintenance with Mark). So far only the first two review steps are in place while the CMP is in limbo and until a Climbers' Advisory Board can be reconstituted and reconvened - the point of all my efforts has been to insure Beacon Locals have a prominent place at that particular table when the time comes.

 

To-date, I (with the 'Menopause' line above 'Rythmn Method') and Shane (with 'Head Case', 'Siege Tactics', and a couple of other great NW Face lines) have both been through the application process and it's painless, relatively quick, and not an obstacle in any way to getting things done. Any 'new' activity - routes or individual pieces of fixed pro - need to be reviewd by Lisa Lantz, whereas replacement-only efforts of limit scope can be approved by the BRSP. A 'big' replacement program of protection bolts would require a serious sitdown with Erik and the BRSP staff and would likely have to be run by Lisa as well, but could probably be done if folks got organized and worked with the process.

 

So on 'Second Wind', I'd say if you're serious, then you should fill out an application stating your proposal is for replacement-only of existing bolts on the climb, which I suspect Erik would approve almost as soon as he gets it. As Bill said, I'd be willing to help out and would also be happy to donate SS bolts and hangers to the effort. I am pretty good at getting the old bolts out and camo'ing holes if any are left behind. And seeing all the old South Face column routes back in action has been a big goal of what work I have done so I'm really psyched to see you guys getting after them all week in, week out - now that's the damn spirit!!!

 

 

Or one could just go do it and not tell anyone. Since the "people in charge" dont climb no one would know.

 

So Bill never answered my question. He stated "climbers" and the BRSP got together and agreed on a CMP.

 

Which climbers is he referring too?

[billcoe]

So Bill never answered my question. He stated "climbers" and the BRSP got together and agreed on a CMP.

 

Which climbers is he referring too?

 

Jim Opdycke, Mike Jackson and others. I hear all this sh&t secondhand of course, but I think that's accurate.

[kevbone]

So it is an old climbing mg plan?

[markd]

joseph,

why can you replace any bolts you want but others can not? i know you do not call and ask permission for every bolt you replace. if you wanted to replace that bolt - you would.

 

permission to replace existing fixed hardware is annoying at best.

[ivan]

P.S. Ivan, those old buttonhead ladder bolts of McGowan's are incredibly hard, not sure what they are made of but those buttonheads will still be rock solid long after the hangers have rusted off them, and they are a monsterous bitch to get out, even with the tuning forks.

 

yup, it was the hangers that made me more nervous then anythign!

 

any clue why he left long blanks spots in the ladder? was he insisting on hooking through them or what?

[billcoe]

Yes it is Kevin. Old.

 

The thing is JH has replaced most of the bolts there, and is keeping track of what got replaced and when it was replaced so that he has a database with that info in it for anyone who needs or wants that info 30 years from now. Furthermore, he's got the whole bolt replacement thing dialed in, it's grab a bag and go, he has it all so finely tuned and all the gear etc.

 

That's why I suggested JH. If you want to volunteer then say so and step forward, didn't mean to slight you if that's what you are thinking. Just do it.

 

BTW, Jim did a hell of a lot of work on that plan way back when, ask him about it sometime.

[kevbone]

Yes it is Kevin. Old.

 

 

So is this argument. But sure does make for good times on the interweb eh?

[billcoe]

Yes it is Kevin. Old.

 

 

So is this argument. But sure does make for good times on the interweb eh?

 

No

__________________________________________________________

 

permission to replace existing fixed hardware is annoying at best.

 

Agreed. Annoying at best and damned dangerous at worst if the request results in a delay. Which is why I'd suggest the process of letting them know you are going to go replace that bolt and then go do it. It's the right thing to do. Does anyone need their email address? Let JH or me know.

[JosephH]

joseph,

why can you replace any bolts you want but others can not? i know you do not call and ask permission for every bolt you replace. if you wanted to replace that bolt - you would. permission to replace existing fixed hardware is annoying at best.

 

Mark, I don't and can't. I have permission for anchor replacement, for 'Menopause', and for cleaning recently placed spurious bolts (mostly bare studs) [down Dastardly, under which 'Wind Walker' fell]. I in no way have any carte blanc to touch protection bolts at Beacon, nor have I, beyond removing studs (and helping you, which I still have to document for them). I in no way would simply go out and replace the 'Second Wind' bolts on my own without an application.

 

Again, with regards to replacing bolts, the new application is primarily for documentation purposes so bolt replacement dates can start being established and tracked going forward. Bill, unless something is very, very strange with someone's request, approvals for replacement bolts will be exceedingly fast and done locally by the BRSP staff (like in hours or a day or two max).

 

Again, working with the WSP, BRSP, WDFW, Gorge Commission, Railroad, and Tribes is NOT an ala carte deal for us - we can't pick and choose what we'll go along with and what we'll simply ignore - do that and things will quickly go back to bad relationships with all those guys and when the CMP Climbers Advisory Board is re-formed, we won't be on it - non-Beacon PDX'ers and folks from SEA will be running the show. Take your pick, but the 'go it alone', 'anything goes' ways of the past aren't going to bring you anything but grief going forward, particularly as Ben gets progressively more into climbing over the next decade and becomes the owner of all things climbing for the BRSP.

Edited September 26, 2008 by JosephH

[kevbone]

What about bolting a new route? Will that be "approved" quickly?

[ivan]

[kevbone]

Ivan.....there is no picture there.

[ivan]

[ivan]

Ivan.....there is no picture there.

then why is sam elliot grinning at me so slyly on my tube-box?

[JosephH]

What about bolting a new route? Will that be "approved" quickly?

 

New route approvals for now will still require Lisa Lantz / WSP review until she has a chance to come down and clearly demarc non-climbing zones with distinct documented boundaries. After that happens, she'll still want to be in the loop on any new routes, but approvals from that point forward will probably happen locally with WSP being notified of the disposition of all applications.

 

As far as "bolting a new route" goes, if by that you mean new, bolt-only sport routes then that's going to be a different matter. Part of the point of the CMP and CAB is to protect Beacon traditions and to not see the replay of any more bolt wars. Mixed routes with some bolts, are one thing, sport routes are another entirely. I personally didn't put all this effort into Beacon to see it simply thrown open to sport climbing. Beacon is a trad island in an ocean of sport climbing opportunities and as far as I'm concerned it should stay that way. This is where the CMP and representation on the CAB gets dicey. You and others may want it thrown open to sport climbing - I and others explicitly do not. I'm certainly not going to sit idly by and see that happen without a fight.

[JosephH]

P.S. I can't be on here any more this afternoon, if I miss anything, I'll check it tonight - and I'll be out there tomorrow if anyone wants to talk about any of it...

[kevbone]

 

As far as "bolting a new route" goes, if by that you mean new, bolt-only sport routes then that's going to be a different matter.

 

Different matter to you? Or to everyone?

 

Part of the point of the CMP and CAB is to protect Beacon traditions and to not see the replay of any more bolt wars.

 

If I bolt and climb and you don’t like it and chop it…..then you have started the war not me.

 

Mixed routes with some bolts, are one thing, sport routes are another entirely

 

Mmmmm pretty hard argument you are purposing. Saying some bolts are better then others. Isnt that up to the person establishing the route?

 

I personally didn't put all this effort into Beacon to see it simply thrown open to sport climbing.

 

Ah….now we are getting somewhere…..so it is about you. Beacon is not just your place to climb. Quite frankly there is a lot of wasted rock out there. There are probably 35 beautiful arêtes that have NO GEAR that just sit idle. I would love to (sometime in the future) look into putting up climbs on them. I do not think it would open it up for sport climbing just because an arête gets bolted.

 

 

[ivan]

 

As far as "bolting a new route" goes, if by that you mean new, bolt-only sport routes then that's going to be a different matter.

 

Different matter to you? Or to everyone?

 

Part of the point of the CMP and CAB is to protect Beacon traditions and to not see the replay of any more bolt wars.

 

If I bolt and climb and you dont like it and chop it..then you have started the war not me.

 

Mixed routes with some bolts, are one thing, sport routes are another entirely

 

Mmmmm pretty hard argument you are purposing. Saying some bolts are better then others. Isnt that up to the person establishing the route?

 

I personally didn't put all this effort into Beacon to see it simply thrown open to sport climbing.

 

Ah.now we are getting somewhere..so it is about you. Beacon is not just your place to climb. Quite frankly there is a lot of wasted rock out there. There are probably 35 beautiful arêtes that have NO GEAR that just sit idle. I would love to (sometime in the future) look into putting up climbs on them. I do not think it would open it up for sport climbing just because an arête gets bolted.

 

kev, i really don't want to see a ton of bolted aretes at beacon - it's what makes vantage look so fucking stupid - that said, a route w/ a bunch of bolts is cool if it's necessary to get to a cool trad route (like young warriors for example)

 

also your war analogy is a wee-bit daft - by your logic, hitler's invasion of poland wasn't a war until the poles started shooting back

[eldiente]

This thread needs to be moved somewhere else, clearly this has nothing to do with the original TR. Move to spray please.

 

-Nate

[markd]

kevin,

you even troll when it's about a place you love; makes no sense. do you really want a bunch of sport climbs at beacon?

 

if this gets moved to spray does that mean i now post in spray

 

 

 

 

[corvallisclimb]

you beacon climbers are a strange breed, you guys crack me up! especially markd!