KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 OK smarty pants.....I dont know the answer, maybe you have the answer. How do we get health care to every American? You will never get 100% coverage. Ever. For those who need services and don't get it, you support charities. Private. I'm sure you'd be willing to volunteer time, money or support to them, right? If you really care, that is. Which you do, right? Oh, wait, you want somebody ELSE to make those financial sacrifices, time commitments, etc, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Your average leftist is for all kinds of stuff but in any realistic scenario where we might see a move toward universal healthcare, such as the proposals touted by Obama and Clinton, they are talking about requiring people to buy healthcare and yes there will be some subsidies but "redistributing wealth" and "socialism?" I don't think even Ralph Nadar is taling about having the government run more hospitals or be the boss of your doctor. Further, if we look at what the government is already spending to provide healthcare services for the indigent and the elderly, veterans and government workers, emergency services and research, etc. etc. etc., it is not clear to me how much if any more in taxes you the victim of all of this is going to pay. Reform proposals include restructuring the private health insurance market, employer "pay or play" requirements, premium subsidies to help individuals purchase health insurance, increased use of health information technology, research and incentives to improve medical decision making, reduced tobacco use and obesity, reforming the payment of providers to encourage efficiency, limiting the tax federal exemption for health insurance premiums, and reforming several market changes such as resetting the benchmark rates for Medicare Advantage plans and allowing the Department of Health and Human Services to negotiate drug prices. Even looking at this broad summary of "all proposals however unlikely" I see no proposal for the State to run the provision of services there. The cries of "socialism" have got you worried,but look at the actual proposals before you assume we're talking about big brother running your doctor's office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Your average leftist is for all kinds of stuff but in any realistic scenario where we might see a move toward universal healthcare, such as the proposals touted by Obama and Clinton, they are talking about requiring people to buy healthcare and yes there will be some subsidies but "redistributing wealth" and "socialism?" A "subsidy" IS redistribution of wealth. The gov't collects the money from one group of people and hands it off to another. Duh. Requires people to buy insurance? What a joke. I thought the insurance companies were part of the problem. Forcing people who are uninsured to buy insurance is tyranny at a minimum and only contributes to the problem What I see most cc.com'ers talking about is a "single payer" system - where the gov't is the payer. There is no insurance company. The gov'e pays the medical bills, funded by tax dollars. And certain Americans (taxpayers) will be footing the bill for everyone. Redistribution of wealth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 cc.com'ers talk about all kinds of crap. I personally would actually favor a single payor system and yes, you are right, I think the insurance companies are a major part of the problem. But that is not to say that any movement toward universal healthcare is "socialism." Read that NYT editorial I cut and pasted in the other thread. "Here comes socialized medicine" is a propaganda ploy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 cc.com'ers talk about all kinds of crap. I personally would actually favor a single payor system and yes, you are right, I think the insurance companies are a major part of the problem. But that is not to say that any movement toward universal healthcare is "socialism." Government provided services in a single-payer system = socialism. Make up whatever euphemisms you want, it's still socialism. Why are you afraid of this word? It's what you want. Embrace it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Dude: relax. There is virtually no prospect that we will see a single payor system any time soon and I don't think any body is even seriously proposing a move toward government provision of actual services. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Dude: relax. There is virtually no prospect that we will see a single payor system any time soon and I don't think any body is even seriously proposing a move toward government provision of actual services. Right, there's a bunch of confusion and bullshit rhetoric, and what we'll see is more government meddling and a more f-d up system than what we already have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Ah, now you are switching arguments. OK. So now you think that government "interference" makes things worse? The medicare system is more efficient than any health insurance company out there, and the Bethesda Naval Hospital is so good that even the president goes there. My clients who go to VA facilities locally report they get good service but want more. What is wrong with that? These ARE socialized medicine but you don't see even the most strident anti-reform advocate saying we should abandon these services. I agree about the confusion and bullshit rhetoric: that was my point about the use of the term "socilized medicine" all along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenSeagal Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 I like how so many people who aren't currently wealthy ardently defend the interests of the wealthy, presumably on the basis that someday, they too might be wealthy and will want to enjoy all the special privileges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Ah, now you are switching arguments. OK. So now you think that government "interference" makes things worse? The interference will be some half-assed "solution", an empty gesture which solves nothing, but gives the public the impression of an accomplishment. That's what we are headed for with this. The result will be more of a cluster-f***, as usual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 I like how so many people who aren't currently wealthy ardently defend the interests of the wealthy, presumably on the basis that someday, they too might be wealthy and will want to enjoy all the special privileges. Define wealthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenSeagal Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 That IS socialized medicine but you don't see even the most strident anti-reform advocate saying we should abandon these services. Oh I disagree, I think we should close down all the military hospitals right now. If those veterans want medical treatment they should get a better job and buy insurance and stop sponging off all us hardworking taxpayers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenSeagal Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Well actually, I guess there's an alternative. We could make lifetime military service mandatory for all men and women.Then we'd all have healthcare. Problem solved! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 That IS socialized medicine but you don't see even the most strident anti-reform advocate saying we should abandon these services. Oh I disagree, I think we should close down all the military hospitals right now. If those veterans want medical treatment they should get a better job and buy insurance and stop sponging off all us hardworking taxpayers. VA Benefits are NOT socialism. They were paid for by service to our country as part of the "benefits package", if you will. This service is NOT a transfer payment. "Universal health care" OTOH is all about taking money from one group of people giving it to another - FOR NO REASON OTHER THAN THEIR RESIDENCY/CITIZENSHIP. They did nothing to earn this benefit, unlike our veterans. Try again - your argument sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Well actually, I guess there's an alternative. We could make lifetime military service mandatory for all men and women.Then we'd all have healthcare. Problem solved! Good idea. Start with Kboner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 The interference will be some half-assed "solution", an empty gesture which solves nothing, but gives the public the impression of an accomplishment. That's what we are headed for with this. The result will be more of a cluster-f***, as usual. Now that could very well be. With folks like you all worried about socilized medicine, with the insurance companies fighting any reform tooth and nail because they fear competition and public scrutiny, and with just plain inertia, we may not see fantastic improvement. That and if any aspect of any new system is run by appointees who are actually opposed to the mission of the organization they are running, as Bush has done with a bunch of agencies, and any benefit may be hamstrung. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 VA Benefits are NOT socialism. They were paid for by service to our country as part of the "benefits package", if you will. This service is NOT a transfer payment. I thought you said that government provision of healthcare services = socialism. Government ownership of health care insurance, administration of it, and distribution of health care goods and services. Yep, sounds like socialism to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenSeagal Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Well actually, I guess there's an alternative. We could make lifetime military service mandatory for all men and women.Then we'd all have healthcare. Problem solved! Good idea. Start with Kboner. No I'm thinking you, buddy boy. You haven't really done shit for this country, have you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenSeagal Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 I like how so many people who aren't currently wealthy ardently defend the interests of the wealthy, presumably on the basis that someday, they too might be wealthy and will want to enjoy all the special privileges. Define wealthy. The people who can fuck over 100 million people with one phone call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 VA Benefits are NOT socialism. They were paid for by service to our country as part of the "benefits package", if you will. This service is NOT a transfer payment. I thought you said that government provision of healthcare services = socialism. Quit being obtuse. VA benefits are not a transfer payment or wealth distribution, they are payment for services rendered to our nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Well actually, I guess there's an alternative. We could make lifetime military service mandatory for all men and women.Then we'd all have healthcare. Problem solved! Good idea. Start with Kboner. No I'm thinking you, buddy boy. You haven't really done shit for this country, have you? We might be able to appease the terrorists with periodic blood sacrifices. You could serve this country quite well in this capacity. I'd be willing to chip in for the one-way plane ticket - a great service for this country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 I like how so many people who aren't currently wealthy ardently defend the interests of the wealthy, presumably on the basis that someday, they too might be wealthy and will want to enjoy all the special privileges. Define wealthy. The people who can fuck over 100 million people with one phone call. Obama and Hillary fit that description. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 Well actually, I guess there's an alternative. We could make lifetime military service mandatory for all men and women.Then we'd all have healthcare. Problem solved! Good idea. Start with Kboner. No I'm thinking you, buddy boy. You haven't really done shit for this country, have you? fuck you asshole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenSeagal Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 VA Benefits are NOT socialism. They were paid for by service to our country as part of the "benefits package", if you will. This service is NOT a transfer payment. I shop a lot. That's a service to our country, because I pour money into the economy.And I pay taxes. That's a service. My last impulse purchases at Pottery Barn and Fireworks might have paid for some more bullets and grenades for use in Iraq. That's a service. Where's my free health care, dammit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenSeagal Posted August 13, 2008 Share Posted August 13, 2008 We might be able to appease the terrorists with periodic blood sacrifices. You could serve this country quite well in this capacity. I'd be willing to chip in for the one-way plane ticket - a great service for this country. Is this code for "love it or leave it?" You could have just said that. No thanks though. I love it, and you're stuck with me. :kisss: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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