Thanks Dennis! -Impeach the Bastard!

[wayne]

Rep. Kucinich introduces Impeachment Article

So its 7 years too late but it would send a message if it can be done.Let a disgraceful presidency end in disgrace,

[mattp]

I agree with the sentiment and fully support impeachment but some of that stuff on the link you provide there is a little over the top and, frankly, disappointing. I'm thinking of the Articles themselves, and the "considerations."

 

Violations and subversions of the Charter of the United Nations and international law, both a part of the "Supreme Law of the land" under Article VI, paragraph 2, of the Constitution, in an attempt to commit with impunity crimes against peace and humanity and war crimes in wars and threats of aggression against Afghanistan, Iraq and others and usurping powers of the United Nations and the peoples of its nations by bribery, coercion and other corrupt acts and by rejecting treaties, committing treaty violations, and frustrating compliance with treaties in order to destroy any means by which international law and institutions can prevent, affect, or adjudicate the exercise of U.S. military and economic power against the international community.

 

You can read this and you know what it says, but it is far from clear, or well-written. And, while I think the invasion of Afghanistan was not not only unjustified and poorly conceived, I bet most Americans think that if there is some question whether our Iraq venture was justified there was no question about Afghanistan. And it is easy to understand why. The "considerations" do not address this point, so readers are left wondering: what the F***?

 

It is a shame, in my opinion, that impeachment isn't a more serious option. We have let Bush and his buddies seriously undermine the Constitution and the Democrats just don't want to take the chance on standing up to it -- or maybe they don't care. And whether you are Democrat or Republican, the fact is the next President and the one after that will be fully justified in thinking they can pull the same kind of stuff with impunity.

[Mal_Con]

They both should be tried for war crimes, waging aggressive war in Iraq seems like a slam dunk. We hung folks Nuremberg for doing that.

[Fairweather]

I think it would be absolutely great if the Dems tried to begin impeachment hearings now.

 

Afghanistan unjustified? I think you're on the 0.00001% fringe with that belief, Matt.

[mattp]

Afghanistan did not attack us. Osama Bin Ladin did. We deliberately or negligently let OBL go. We took over Afghanistan and it doesn't look as if it is working out very well.

 

No. It was not justified. Nor was it handled well.

[builder206]

I think the invasion of Afghanistan was not not only unjustified and poorly conceived

 

Say more. Afghanistan had become a criminal state, housing Osama and his training camps. That's where 9-11 came from. Osama/9-11/Afghanistan/Taliban. That's the obvious slam dunk Iraq never was nor ever could be. The war in Afghanistan has not gone well, but unjustified?

[mattp]

Builder: the 911 attackers were from Saudia Arabia, not Aghanistan. We attacked Afghanistan because they couldn't control people on their border? We have not been able to do that either.

 

Do you think our war plan in Afghanistan was intended to catch Osama Bin Laden?

[Fairweather]

Afghanistan did not attack us. Osama Bin Ladin did. We deliberately or negligently let OBL go. We took over Afghanistan and it doesn't look as if it is working out very well.

 

No. It was not justified. Nor was it handled well.

 

Should we have gone only after Nazi Party members and spared the German populace the suffering we inflicted? If so, how?

[builder206]

They were trained, funded, and organized by OBL in Afghanistan. Their leader was hosted warmly by Afghanistan's rulers, the Taliban.

[Fairweather]

Builder: the 911 attackers were from Saudia Arabia, not Aghanistan. We attacked Afghanistan because they couldn't control people on their border? We have not been able to do that either.

 

 

Because liberals and their lawyers stand in the way of reasonable measures?

[sobo]

They both should be tried for war crimes, waging aggressive war in Iraq seems like a slam dunk. We hung folks Nuremberg for doing that.

Since you invoke Nuremburg and "waging aggressive war", I think you probably should read up on the definition of war of aggression. Where is our "territorial aggrandizement and conquest"? We have no intention (at least I hope to Dog we don't) of colonizing Iraq and/or Afghanistan (ergo, no territorial aggrandizement), and we ain't getting oil any cheaper (ergo, no conquest), so I think your argument falls a little shy of the mark.

[mattp]

Seriously: do you guys {Fairweater and Builder) really think that going on TV for two months, saying "we're going to invade in the next month or two, and we are going to try to catch YOU" was intended to actually set the groundwork for catching Osama Bin Ladin?

[mattp]

Sobo: I'm not prepared to argue the semantics of war of aggression, but do you think we invaded Iraq for any reason other than to control an oil rich area? No matter who is elected this November, I bet we plan to hold on to the new base we've built outside Basra. You wanna lay odds that we'll give it up without being forced to?

[sobo]

I did not like the idea of either war (Afghanistan or Iraq), but I felt that at least for Afghanistan, we had a "better reason" for going in, because that is where we knew Al Quaida was churning out recruits and that was where OBL was hiding. And the Taliban were not "down home boys" either.

 

Truth be known, if we wantd a fight, we should have started a fracas with N Korea, cuz that muthafuckka is fucking crazy, he has nukes, he has control of them and his military, and he's just plumb crazy enough to push the button. There, I said it.

[Fairweather]

 

Truth be known, if we wantd a fight, we should have started a fracas with N Korea, cuz that muthafuckka is fucking crazy, he has nukes, he has control of them and his military, and he's just plumb crazy enough to push the button. There, I said it.

 

Thanks, in large part, to Bill Clinton, Bill Richardson, and Madeline Albright. More Dems, anyone?

[mattp]

I agree that we had a "better reason" for going into Afghanistan.

[sobo]

Sobo: I'm not prepared to argue the semantics of war of aggression, but do you think we invaded Iraq for any reason other than to control an oil rich area? No matter who is elected this November, I bet we plan to hold on to the new base we've built outside Basra. You wanna lay odds that we'll give it up without being forced to?

I don't disagree with you. I thought it was wrong in 2003 and I still think it was wrong. Saddam had nothing we were interested in except oil. We wanted control of it. Shit, I half-believe that GH Bush put his boy up to cleaning up his unfinished business. Shit, maybe Scott Harpnell is right, about "going back in". What if GH Bush had marched all the way to Baghdad instead of just chasing him out of Kuwait? Would we be where we are now?

 

And you're also probably correct about that base. Has the USA ever voluntarily given up a military base in modern times (since WWII) anywhere? Anyone?

[mattp]

Yes, FW, I give up. The fact that the ENTIRE WORLD doesn't trust our assessment of the threat posed by "enemy" nations and our traditional allies are hesitant to back us because they don't trust that we aren't vying to dominate even them is PURELY the fault of the Democrats.

[Fairweather]

And you're also probably correct about that base. Has the USA ever voluntarily given up a military base in modern times (since WWII) anywhere? Anyone?

 

Subic Bay, Philippines.

[Fairweather]

Yes, FW, I give up. The fact that the ENTIRE WORLD doesn't trust our assessment of the threat posed by "enemy" nations and our traditional allies are hesitant to back us because they don't trust that we aren't vying to dominate even them is PURELY the fault of the Democrats.

 

The fact is, Democrats demonstrated in North Korea that they trust our enemies too much.

[Dechristo]

Shit, I half-believe that GH Bush put his boy up to cleaning up his unfinished business. Shit, maybe Scott Harpnell is right, about "going back in". What if GH Bush had marched all the way to Baghdad instead of just chasing him out of Kuwait? Would we be where we are now?

 

I like the quote by GH Bush's former secretary of state:

 

"People used to ask me, all the time, why we didn't go all the way into Baghdad. They don't ask me that anymore."

[Fairweather]

I'd still like to hear more about how we should "protect our borders". Ideas?

[mattp]

If that is true that the Democrats dropped the ball on N. Korea (I don't know what you are talking about, I must admit), how much did it cost -- in $ and in power and prestige and long term security compared to Iraq? I realize that they pose a greater threat than Saddam ever did, but what is the global implication? Have we told a major segment of the world's population, and a cluster of nations that have oil resources, that we view them as enemies of our way of life? Have we hollowed out our military preparedness over N. Korea? Have we alienated our allies over our dealing with the situation?

[Mal_Con]

We have been occupying Iraq for 5 years now, the Germans occupied Poland from Sept 1939 to March 1945 and France from 1940 to 1944. So how different are we?

[sobo]

And you're also probably correct about that base. Has the USA ever voluntarily given up a military base in modern times (since WWII) anywhere? Anyone?

 

Subic Bay, Philippines.

OK, so I looked that up. From what I read here, it would seem to me that giving up the base wasn't entirely voluntary on our part. As in, the USA would not confirm nor deny the presence of nukes on Philippine soil, which led directly to our involuntary ouster. See below:

 

"In December 1991, the two governments were again in talks to extend the withdrawal of American forces for three years but this broke down as the United States refused to spell out in detail their withdrawal plans or say if nuclear weapons were kept on base; nuclear weapons were forbidden on Philippine soil. Finally, on December 27, President Corazon Aquino, who fought to delay the pullout to cushion the country's battered economy, issued a formal notice for the U.S. to leave what has been the U.S.'s largest overseas defense facility after Clark Air Base was closed, by the end of 1992."

 

In conclusion, issuing a formal notice to leave does not sound like voluntarily turning over a base to me. So what else ya got?