Iraq

[KaskadskyjKozak]

scott, i think this is the problem, i'm not sure that people are convinced that what we're doing there right now is nation building.

 

If you could see it with your own eyes you would understand. Everything being done there is to stimulate autonomy.

1) Building the Army

2) Building the police force

3) Fixing dilapidated power, sewer, water and housing issues

4) Creating a constitution that all sects can live with.

 

ensuring these things are done ensures that we will not have to go back.

 

Edit: Oh yeah and catch Iranian soldiers trying to mess it all up

 

I have a friend (Marine) who HAS been there, and HAS seen it with his own eyes, and he thinks it's all bullshit.

 

I'm just pointing out that not everybody who has seen it with their own eyes believes in the mission.

 

My grandfather served in the Pacific from '41 to '45. He considered the war to be all bullshit and a waste of 4 years of his life. While being shipped home after the war, he threw his uniform overboard. Just saying...

 

[rob]

scott, i think this is the problem, i'm not sure that people are convinced that what we're doing there right now is nation building.

 

If you could see it with your own eyes you would understand. Everything being done there is to stimulate autonomy.

1) Building the Army

2) Building the police force

3) Fixing dilapidated power, sewer, water and housing issues

4) Creating a constitution that all sects can live with.

 

ensuring these things are done ensures that we will not have to go back.

 

Edit: Oh yeah and catch Iranian soldiers trying to mess it all up

 

I have a friend (Marine) who HAS been there, and HAS seen it with his own eyes, and he thinks it's all bullshit.

 

I'm just pointing out that not everybody who has seen it with their own eyes believes in the mission.

 

My grandfather served in the Pacific from '41 to '45. He considered the war to be all bullshit and a waste of 4 years of his life. While being shipped home after the war, he threw his uniform overboard. Just saying...

 

My friend's perspective was that the leadership had no clear idea what they were doing, or what they had got themselves into, or how to accomplish anything that they might decide they were doing. And that once somebdoy decided what they were doing, they were usually at odds with some other decision made elsewhere, to do something different.

 

Clusterfuck was how he described it.

[Hugh Conway]

My friend's perspective was that the leadership had no clear idea what they were doing, or what they had got themselves into, or how to accomplish anything that they might decide they were doing. And that once somebdoy decided what they were doing, they were usually at odds with some other decision made elsewhere, to do something different.

 

Clusterfuck was how he described it.

 

My G. Grandfather had exactly the same perspective on WW1. I wish I'd saved the order he wrote as medical officer, in triplicate, that troops were no longer to defecate when standing on the latrine.

[builder206]

leadership had no clear idea what they were doing, or what they had got themselves into, or how to accomplish anything that they might decide they were doing. And that once somebdoy decided what they were doing, they were usually at odds with some other decision made elsewhere, to do something different.

 

I know of a certain French-led construction project...

[KaskadskyjKozak]

My friend's perspective was that the leadership had no clear idea what they were doing, or what they had got themselves into, or how to accomplish anything that they might decide they were doing. And that once somebdoy decided what they were doing, they were usually at odds with some other decision made elsewhere, to do something different.

 

Clusterfuck was how he described it.

 

My G. Grandfather had exactly the same perspective on WW1. I wish I'd saved the order he wrote as medical officer, in triplicate, that troops were no longer to defecate when standing on the

latrine.

 

Paths of Glory

[underworld]

scott, i think this is the problem, i'm not sure that people are convinced that what we're doing there right now is nation building.

 

If you could see it with your own eyes you would understand. Everything being done there is to stimulate autonomy.

1) Building the Army

2) Building the police force

3) Fixing dilapidated power, sewer, water and housing issues

4) Creating a constitution that all sects can live with.

 

ensuring these things are done ensures that we will not have to go back.

 

Edit: Oh yeah and catch Iranian soldiers trying to mess it all up

 

I have a friend (Marine) who HAS been there, and HAS seen it with his own eyes, and he thinks it's all bullshit.

 

I'm just pointing out that not everybody who has seen it with their own eyes believes in the mission.

 

My grandfather served in the Pacific from '41 to '45. He considered the war to be all bullshit and a waste of 4 years of his life. While being shipped home after the war, he threw his uniform overboard. Just saying...

 

My friend's perspective was that the leadership had no clear idea what they were doing, or what they had got themselves into, or how to accomplish anything that they might decide they were doing. And that once somebdoy decided what they were doing, they were usually at odds with some other decision made elsewhere, to do something different.

 

Clusterfuck was how he described it.

 

that's a very common sentiment that workers have about their bosses and the companies they work for. in a big company or bureaucracy (like the military) the average worker (soldier) doesn't have the field of vision that the leaders have. at the same time, all too often the leadership doesn't have the hands-on knowledge that the workers (soldiers) have.

 

can't really take the single data points as gospel, in either direction

[rob]

scott, i think this is the problem, i'm not sure that people are convinced that what we're doing there right now is nation building.

 

If you could see it with your own eyes you would understand. Everything being done there is to stimulate autonomy.

1) Building the Army

2) Building the police force

3) Fixing dilapidated power, sewer, water and housing issues

4) Creating a constitution that all sects can live with.

 

ensuring these things are done ensures that we will not have to go back.

 

Edit: Oh yeah and catch Iranian soldiers trying to mess it all up

 

I have a friend (Marine) who HAS been there, and HAS seen it with his own eyes, and he thinks it's all bullshit.

 

I'm just pointing out that not everybody who has seen it with their own eyes believes in the mission.

 

My grandfather served in the Pacific from '41 to '45. He considered the war to be all bullshit and a waste of 4 years of his life. While being shipped home after the war, he threw his uniform overboard. Just saying...

 

My friend's perspective was that the leadership had no clear idea what they were doing, or what they had got themselves into, or how to accomplish anything that they might decide they were doing. And that once somebdoy decided what they were doing, they were usually at odds with some other decision made elsewhere, to do something different.

 

Clusterfuck was how he described it.

 

that's a very common sentiment that workers have about their bosses and the companies they work for. in a big company or bureaucracy (like the military) the average worker (soldier) doesn't have the field of vision that the leaders have. at the same time, all too often the leadership doesn't have the hands-on knowledge that the workers (soldiers) have.

 

can't really take the single data points as gospel, in either direction

 

My point, exactly. Scott has/will have an interesting perspective on the Iraq situation, perhaps more so than ours, but that doesn't make his opinion gospel, just because "he's been there." I know guys who "have been there" that would disagree. His/their service hardly makes them experts.

 

So, in the end, we're all just a bunch of motherfuckers pretending to know a lot more than we do.

Edited June 4, 2008 by rob

[scott_harpell]

I am just trying to show that it is not as bleak as the media is portraying. I do wish that we had the resources to do other things but right now we are committed. I have never quit anything in my life (except leading even steven, that climb is a bitch for a skinny kid) and i don't want to start now.

 

I am probably a little reluctant to leave because i know it will mean that those whose lives have been lost would not be wasted on something that just didn't work.

 

Luckily, I am just another Joe and that decision does not rest on my shoulders. For to take a gamble like that and fail would be worse than anything I could imagine.

 

[underworld]

the fact that there is less and less media coverage lately is kind of indicative of it being less and less bleak. IMO

 

 

[scott_harpell]

the fact that there is less and less media coverage lately is kind of indicative of it being less and less bleak. IMO

 

 

Exactly. I think that it would be the perfect time to get journalists to come in and see the reconstruction efforts.

 

I really don't think it is a priority for the media though. I am sure they would rather help perpetuate the fight between Hill and Obama.

[Stefan]

Islamic extremism, terrorism, and the nuclear threat from Iran are major concerns as well. It's not just oil.

 

Now those other concerns are important. Before the invasion of Iraq...they had to come up with the nuclear threat concern.

 

So tell me, do you believe in the philosophy of preemptive military action to stop these potential concerns?

[scott_harpell]

military action to stop these potential concerns?

 

Would I rather we go to war than have Iran (who just pretty much told the World he was going to kill us right after he offed Israel) posess nuclear devices? Bet yer sweet tofu loven' ass.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Islamic extremism, terrorism, and the nuclear threat from Iran are major concerns as well. It's not just oil.

 

Now those other concerns are important. Before the invasion of Iraq...they had to come up with the nuclear threat concern.

 

So tell me, do you believe in the philosophy of preemptive military action to stop these potential concerns?

 

I would support bombing Iranian nuclear power plants before they go live. I'm not too keen on Iraq-style land invasions.

 

[Stefan]

military action to stop these potential concerns?

 

Would I rather we go to war than have Iran (who just pretty much told the World he was going to kill us right after he offed Israel) posess nuclear devices? Bet yer sweet tofu loven' ass.

 

Then you are against the philosophy of "innocent until proven guilty." Which means you are against one of the values in the US justice system. Possessing nuclear weapons does not make one guilty. The use of nuclear weapons does...but not the possesssion of them.

 

How about we just round up people who we think "might" murder somebody?

 

Th US justice system requires an action to take place.

 

What are you fighting for if you do not believe in one of the prime values/philosphies in the US justice system?

 

 

[Hugh Conway]

the fact that there is less and less media coverage lately is kind of indicative of it being less and less bleak. IMO

 

 

or there's absolutely no hope

[underworld]

the fact that there is less and less media coverage lately is kind of indicative of it being less and less bleak. IMO

 

 

or there's absolutely no hope

 

well, that would be them editorializing...wouldn't it...

[scott_harpell]

military action to stop these potential concerns?

 

Would I rather we go to war than have Iran (who just pretty much told the World he was going to kill us right after he offed Israel) posess nuclear devices? Bet yer sweet tofu loven' ass.

 

Then you are against the philosophy of "innocent until proven guilty." Which means you are against one of the values in the US justice system. Possessing nuclear weapons does not make one guilty. The use of nuclear weapons does...but not the possesssion of them.

 

How about we just round up people who we think "might" murder somebody?

 

Th US justice system requires an action to take place.

 

What are you fighting for if you do not believe in one of the prime values/philosphies in the US justice system?

 

 

haha If someone threatens to shoot their wife, what happens in the American Justice System? They get a restraining order. If they break the restraining order, they are incarcerated.

 

Iran has threatened the US while making nuclear material. Time for a "restaining order" (follow?) if they continue on this path of agression, the US (ie Juducial System) has no other recourse than to make good on their promise of incarceration.

 

Now, you still want to insinate that my position is hypocritical?

[scott_harpell]

the fact that there is less and less media coverage lately is kind of indicative of it being less and less bleak. IMO

 

 

or there's absolutely no hope

 

Truly a boy with first hand knowledge of current World events. Sure like your cheery disposition and general outlook on life!

[Stefan]

Iran has threatened the US while making nuclear material. Time for a "restaining order" (follow?) if they continue on this path of agression, the US (ie Juducial System) has no other recourse than to make good on their promise of incarceration.

 

Actually, Iran has said continuously that they could build their own weapon and are against anyone saying they can't--or something very similar to that.

 

Iran has never said or something very similar, "We will use nuclear weapons on the U.S."

 

Your response is not accurate.

 

[underworld]

according to pelosi...things ARE getting better in iraq - no thanks to the us troops, but instead thanks to the goodwill of the iranians.

 

[scott_harpell]

Iran has threatened the US while making nuclear material. Time for a "restaining order" (follow?) if they continue on this path of agression, the US (ie Juducial System) has no other recourse than to make good on their promise of incarceration.

 

Actually, Iran has said continuously that they could build their own weapon and are against anyone saying they can't--or something very similar to that.

 

Iran has never said or something very similar, "We will use nuclear weapons on the U.S."

 

Your response is not accurate.

 

apparently you didn't read a newspaper today. Abnijenemennnebenejad implied he would destroy Israel and then ensured the destruction of the US. Then he got kicked out of the UN dinner.

[scott_harpell]

according to pelosi...things ARE getting better in iraq - no thanks to the us troops, but instead thanks to the goodwill of the iranians.

 

 

Yeah, and what % of the militants in Iraq are Iranian? And why did we capture 5 Iranian soldiers in Iraq just today? lol

[underworld]

because we are the bad guys!!!!!!! duh!

[scott_harpell]

because we are the bad guys!!!!!!! duh!

Of course! Iran is saving poor Iraq from the big bad White Devil!

[prole]

Scott,

If you are, as you've stated, a mindless automaton, that thinking is beyond your paygrade, and that you follow the orders of your superiors without question, what makes you think that you have any credibility when it comes to any of these issues? If you're looking for a personal CC.com ticker-tape parade , it happened back on page 2 of this thread. If not, get back to work doing whatever it is you think you do.