Islam: fear trumps freedom

[Off_White]

That's WAY out line. Even for you man.

 

I'm unclear on why you think this. Is it that you find the phrase offensive? Is it the notion that someone who feels this way would be a McCain supporter? Is it my implication that xenophobic racism is present on our side as well as in the radical elements promoting jihad?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

If Obama had a credible foreign policy stance, I might consider voting for him, but his 16 month pull out plan, makes no sense whatsoever. There is no solid criteria or reasoning to offer this plan up to the American public other than to attract votes from the uneducated.

 

Well said: however I highly suspect that once all of his other ideas and plans finally see the light of day, even the unwashed masses who voted him in will be unsatisfied like you cannot imagine. Some of you here will be looking back fondly on the Bush years, despite your yowls otherwise about it now.

 

I think Bush's legacy will be a mixed bag. He's not a good president, nor is he a terrible one, but somewhere in the middle.

 

Obama, like all politicians, is saying one thing to appeal to the people to get elected. Once in office (if he makes it), there is a good chance that 16 month plan will evaporate. Nixon ran on getting us out of Vietnam. 4 years later we were still there, and our involvement had actually increased. He still won reelection in '72!

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

That's WAY out line. Even for you man.

 

I'm unclear on why you think this. Is it that you find the phrase offensive? Is it the notion that someone who feels this way would be a McCain supporter? Is it my implication that xenophobic racism is present on our side as well as in the radical elements promoting jihad?

 

How many people have you actually heard say this? Kill the towelheads, that is? Or is it something you just "suspect" you political adversaries to actually think?

 

 

[Off_White]

Oh, I think I understand, you have your set theory backwards. The "kill the towelheads" crowd is a subset of McCain supporters, but not all McCain supporters are of that group. By the same token, if the Log Cabin Republicans endorse McCain, it doesn't mean that McCain is in favor of gay marriage.

[mattp]

I don't disagree with the condemnation of Muslim intolerance expressed here but I don't agree with Recycled's history lesson. Yes, Islam was born in a tribal time and yes, they did seek to conquer the world. In their conquest they were, however, far more tolerant than were the Christian crusaders who followed. They allowed their subjects to practice their own religion as long as they paid their taxes. Is "kill all infidels" necessarily part of Muslim creed? I don't know.

[kevbone]

 

I think Bush's legacy will be a mixed bag. He's not a good president, nor is he a terrible one, but somewhere in the middle.

 

Ah….KKK has entered the ring. I have to disagree. Bush is the worst president the country has ever seen, with maybe the exception of Regan. 21% of the American people think he is doing a good job. I cant help that those 21% live in the south and say “uncle dad” on a regular basis. I also understand Bush is a puppet and Cheney is the true puppeteer. But the buck has to stop somewhere……Bush, in the end will get blamed for the demise of the USA. And the democrats in congress……..because they have no spine to stand up for what’s right.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

In their conquest they were, however, far more tolerant than were the Christian crusaders who followed.

 

Are you f-ing kidding? That's almost laughable if it were not so twisted.

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

So I watched the controversial video.

 

That movie is just a 10 minute opinion piece, hardly worth all the fuss, and all the morons in Islamofuckistan need to get a grip.

[glassgowkiss]

I don't disagree with the condemnation of Muslim intolerance expressed here but I don't agree with Recycled's history lesson. Yes, Islam was born in a tribal time and yes, they did seek to conquer the world. In their conquest they were, however, far more tolerant than were the Christian crusaders who followed. They allowed their subjects to practice their own religion as long as they paid their taxes. Is "kill all infidels" necessarily part of Muslim creed? I don't know.

 

i don't think tolerance was a part of Ottoman Empire or muslim chapter in history of spain. actually recycled history is pretty much right on. Khan allowed his subjects to practice their own religion, but Khan was not muslim.

[Off_White]

How many people have you actually heard say this? Kill the towelheads, that is? Or is it something you just "suspect" you political adversaries to actually think?

 

KK, I've heard several people say it with full intent. One exact quote, by a young enlisted man speaking to his buddies, "I'm going to Iraq to kill me some towelheads." I've also heard "sand *" used in this context.

 

It's understandable, killing another human being is not something to take lightly, and it's easier if you can dehumanize your target. Perhaps "infidel" is sufficiently pejorative to serve that function on their side. Certainly some form of this process has been around as long as warfare. That doesn't mean I have to stand up and applaud it.

 

Hatred of the Other, whether based on race, religion, gender, sexuality, or social class, is the central flaw of humanity.

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

How many people have you actually heard say this? Kill the towelheads, that is? Or is it something you just "suspect" you political adversaries to actually think?

 

KK, I've heard several people say it with full intent. One exact quote, by a young enlisted man speaking to his buddies, "I'm going to Iraq to kill me some towelheads." I've also heard "sand *" used in this context.

 

It's understandable, killing another human being is not something to take lightly, and it's easier if you can dehumanize your target. Perhaps "infidel" is sufficiently pejorative to serve that function on their side. Certainly some form of this process has been around as long as warfare. That doesn't mean I have to stand up and applaud it.

 

Hatred of the Other, whether based on race, religion, gender, sexuality, or social class, is the central flaw of humanity.

 

My brother in law speaks Azeri and Turkish. He used to work in a copy store downtown and often had muslim customers come in and talk shit about America and Americans amongst themselves (in Arabic, Farsi, etc). My brother in law could understand quite a bit. One time two guys were going on and on about American women being whores, beneath contempt, etc, and my brother in law proceeded to chew them a new one in their own language. And you should hear his stories related from friends who are veterans of the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.

 

Anecdotal evidence is great. I've never heard anyone who supported our troops talk about killing towel-heads or sand-n***ers. In general I think our troops and American people are about as good as you'll get. I'd much rather be looking down an American barrel than an Iranian, Russian, N. Korean, or Chinese one. I guess only a French barrel would be preferable, since it would never be fired (I'd just have to yell "boo").

 

[mattp]

Actually, glasgowkiss, I read a history text a few years back that cited examples of their tolerance exercised in Spain. That book was the Columbia History of the World - not a book that I am aware has ever been criticized for being soft on Islam.

 

Here's an excerpt from the Wikipedia entry for Muslim Golden Age:

 

Many medieval Muslim thinkers pursued humanistic, rational and scientific discourses in their search for knowledge, meaning and values. A wide range of Islamic writings on love poetry, history and philosophical theology show that medieval Islamic thought was open to the humanistic ideas of individualism, occasional secularism, skepticism and liberalism.

 

Religious freedom, though limited, helped create cross-cultural networks by attracting Muslim, Christian and Jewish intellectuals and thereby helped spawn the greatest period of philosophical creativity in the Middle Ages from the 8th to 13th centuries.[6] Another reason the Islamic world flourished during this period was an early emphasis on freedom of speech, as summarized by al-Hashimi (a cousin of Caliph al-Ma'mun) in the following letter to one of the religious opponents he was attempting to convert through reason

 

Hhere an entry from the page on the muslim conquest of Alexandria:

 

The hallmark of Muslim conquest was its surprising tolerance. Following Muslim conquest, the local populace and political infrastructure was generally allowed to continue on, albeit under Muslim control. There were notable exceptions of course; most apparent was the Muslim treatment of “idolaters” and “pagans”. The Muslim people were remarkably tolerant of the Jews and Christians of captured regions. Many rose to positions of relative power and affluence in the new cities like Baghdad.[3] This led to a stable and smooth running empire. The only major differentiation existent between Muslims and non-Muslims was the system by which they were taxed. Non believers were obligated to pay a higher tax to the local government called the jizya, while Muslims had to pay a zachat.

 

You can easily find historical references to the brutality of the Muslim conquest, and I won't dispute those. When tent bound on an expedition to Alaska I read a world history book, however, and I was surprised to learn that Muslim jihad has more to it than the simplistic ideas I read here on cc.com.

[mattp]

I've never heard anyone who supported our troops talk about killing towel-heads or sand-n***ers.

 

Actually, I think we could run some searches and find exactly that being urged by some fairly prolific posters on cc.com a few years back - unless the politically correct moderators you complain about deleted it.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Actulally, glasgowkiss, I read a history text a few years back that cited examples of their tolerance exercised in Spain. Here's an excerpt from the Wikipedia entry for Muslim Golden Age:

 

Many medieval Muslim thinkers pursued humanistic, rational and scientific discourses in their search for knowledge, meaning and values. A wide range of Islamic writings on love poetry, history and philosophical theology show that medieval Islamic thought was open to the humanistic ideas of individualism, occasional secularism, skepticism and liberalism.

 

Religious freedom, though limited, helped create cross-cultural networks by attracting Muslim, Christian and Jewish intellectuals and thereby helped spawn the greatest period of philosophical creativity in the Middle Ages from the 8th to 13th centuries.[6] Another reason the Islamic world flourished during this period was an early emphasis on freedom of speech, as summarized by al-Hashimi (a cousin of Caliph al-Ma'mun) in the following letter to one of the religious opponents he was attempting to convert through reason

 

Hhere an entry from the page on the muslim conquest of Alexandria:

 

The hallmark of Muslim conquest was its surprising tolerance. Following Muslim conquest, the local populace and political infrastructure was generally allowed to continue on, albeit under Muslim control. There were notable exceptions of course; most apparent was the Muslim treatment of “idolaters” and “pagans”. The Muslim people were remarkably tolerant of the Jews and Christians of captured regions. Many rose to positions of relative power and affluence in the new cities like Baghdad.[3] This led to a stable and smooth running empire. The only major differentiation existent between Muslims and non-Muslims was the system by which they were taxed. Non believers were obligated to pay a higher tax to the local government called the jizya, while Muslims had to pay a zachat.

 

You can easily find historical references to the brutality of the Muslim conquest, and I won't dispute those. When tent bound on an expedition to Alaska I read a world history book, however, and I was surprised to learn that Muslim jihad has more to it than the simplistic ideas I read here on cc.com.

 

Yeah, the Ottoman Turks were soooo tolerant. Just ask the Armenians.

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I've never heard anyone who supported our troops talk about killing towel-heads or sand-n***ers.

 

Actually, I think we could run some searches and find exactly that being urged by some fairly prolific posters on cc.com a few years back - unless the politically correct moderators you complain about deleted it.

 

Go ahead and do the search. We'll see how much you turn up.

[JANUS]

How many people have you actually heard say this? Kill the towelheads, that is? Or is it something you just "suspect" you political adversaries to actually think?

 

KK, I've heard several people say it with full intent. One exact quote, by a young enlisted man speaking to his buddies, "I'm going to Iraq to kill me some towelheads." I've also heard "sand *" used in this context.

 

It's understandable, killing another human being is not something to take lightly, and it's easier if you can dehumanize your target. Perhaps "infidel" is sufficiently pejorative to serve that function on their side. Certainly some form of this process has been around as long as warfare. That doesn't mean I have to stand up and applaud it.

 

Hatred of the Other, whether based on race, religion, gender, sexuality, or social class, is the central flaw of humanity.

 

My brother in law speaks Azeri and Turkish. He used to work in a copy store downtown and often had muslim customers come in and talk shit about America and Americans amongst themselves (in Arabic, Farsi, etc). My brother in law could understand quite a bit. One time two guys were going on and on about American women being whores, beneath contempt, etc, and my brother in law proceeded to chew them a new one in their own language. And you should hear his stories related from friends who are veterans of the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.

 

Anecdotal evidence is great. I've never heard anyone who supported our troops talk about killing towel-heads or sand-n***ers. In general I think our troops and American people are about as good as you'll get. I'd much rather be looking down an American barrel than an Iranian, Russian, N. Korean, or Chinese one. I guess only a French barrel would be preferable, since it would never be fired (I'd just have to yell "boo").

 

I have heard plenty of insults regarding "towelhead" and "camel jockey", etc...but perhaps since I don't a know language used by Islamic people I don't hear this hatred of America you talk of here in the streets of the US. I'm SURE there is plenty of that kind of talk over in the Middle East however.

 

Keep in mind that we have Gitmo, etc. I don't think you can say that American hands are clean.

 

IMO it is more accurate to say that bigotry and racism is an unfortunate human characteristic that pervades pretty much all cultures. Anecdotes may help you bring home the anger, but then forest is lost in the trees. They help you develop nice stereotypes and the like (Such as your diss of the French at the end of your post. )

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I have heard plenty of insults regarding "towelhead" and "camel jockey", etc...but perhaps since I don't a know language used by Islamic people I don't hear this hatred of America you talk of here in the streets of the US. I'm SURE there is plenty of that kind of talk over in the Middle East however.

 

Keep in mind that we have Gitmo, etc. I don't think you can say that American hands are clean.

 

IMO it is more accurate to say that bigotry and racism is an unfortunate human characteristic that pervades pretty much all cultures. Anecdotes may help you bring home the anger, but then forest is lost in the trees. They help you develop nice stereotypes and the like (Such as your diss of the French at the end of your post. )

 

I think Americans are fundamentally more generous and even-handed than others. Indeed our rep among many people is that we are "naive" because of this. We trust too much and are too generous with folks who hate us.

 

BTW, the French comment was a friggin' joke.

 

[JANUS]

I have heard plenty of insults regarding "towelhead" and "camel jockey", etc...but perhaps since I don't a know language used by Islamic people I don't hear this hatred of America you talk of here in the streets of the US. I'm SURE there is plenty of that kind of talk over in the Middle East however.

 

Keep in mind that we have Gitmo, etc. I don't think you can say that American hands are clean.

 

IMO it is more accurate to say that bigotry and racism is an unfortunate human characteristic that pervades pretty much all cultures. Anecdotes may help you bring home the anger, but then forest is lost in the trees. They help you develop nice stereotypes and the like (Such as your diss of the French at the end of your post. )

 

I think Americans are fundamentally more generous and even-handed than others. Indeed our rep among many people is that we are "naive" because of this. We trust too much and are too generous with folks who hate us.

 

BTW, the French comment was a friggin' joke.

 

Were Freedom Fries a joke? It seems to me there were actually national leaders behind that.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Were Freedom Fries a joke? It seems to me there were actually national leaders behind that.

 

Yes, that was a total fucking joke! Don't you agree?

 

[JANUS]

Yes. I think it also highlights the problem that is being discussed here.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Yes. I think it also highlights the problem that is being discussed here.

 

Stupid Americans who think a dish is French, which probably came from Belgium, and has actually become more American (super size me!)? That problem?

 

The worst we do is rename our foods. The Imams would have issued a few Fatwas, and some throats would have been slashed and bombs exploded.

 

Yes, it certainly illustrates a point, you are correct!

 

[JANUS]

If you would kindly look at my previous statement in this thread you'll see that I'm not faulting Americans, but rather human nature.

 

"The worst we do is rename our foods". Do you really believe that statement? Give it some thought.

 

Maybe you can't see the forest because of the trees, but what I'm talking about is not finding a way to assign blame on someone we can then destroy, but rather talking about the human tendancy to categorize and demonize the "other". Its an extremely useful tool for dividing people. Do you remember what the reasoning was behind the proposed Freedom Fries?

 

Anyway, all the best, I have work to do so I'm out of here. Have fun!

[Off_White]

Actually, I think we could run some searches and find exactly that being urged by some fairly prolific posters on cc.com a few years back - unless the politically correct moderators you complain about deleted it.

 

You made me curious, so I did a little searching. In fact, it only appears to have been used once on this board in a pro-war context in the form "fuck the towelheads" by Gotterdamerung back in 04 in a thread about Abu Ghraib. Every other occurrence of the term is by someone on the left rebutting or recasting someone's anti arab opinion, or in quoted material from elsewhere. Our right wing on Cascadeclimbers is more politically correct than they are given credit for, and the phrase is more often used here as a dirty arguing trick to denigrate another's position by applying an extra wash of rascism. You know, like I've just done.

 

So, maybe that bumpersticker is way out of line, at least within the context of this website.

 

 

better?

[glassgowkiss]

Actually, glasgowkiss, I read a history text a few years back that cited examples of their tolerance exercised in Spain. That book was the Columbia History of the World - not a book that I am aware has ever been criticized for being soft on Islam.

 

 

i am sure that 138 thousand of ottoman troops near vienna had only peace on their mind..... also a million of Armenians were killed in a peaceful manner of moderate muslims. their cruelty was legendary.

[archenemy]

I can't believe that at this stage anyone would give a shit about some name-calling. You think I get my panties in a twist every time I hear "bitch" or "cunt"? No, it is too late for that. I get upset when I hear of stonings, sanctioned gang rapes, loss of freedoms.

 

Stop bickering about the little shit that doesn't matter right now. The whole effort at being politically correct is only part of what ties peoples hands. I am unconcerned with peoples feelings about perjorative terms. I am intensely concerned about people getting death threats for voicing their opinions. Aren't you?