rob Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 The effect that this sort of thing will have on your life in this society will vary in direct proportion to the extent that you've violated codes of conduct that you volunteered to uphold. If you are a single guy who is not holding, or interested in holding public office, you can fly to Nevada and have at it and the effect on your life will be negligible, aside from whatever diseases you contract. If you are a married man holding public office, you've accepted constraints on your behavior that are vastly different than a single, private citizen has to live with in exchange for the benefits that stem from marriage and public office. Violate the oaths that you volunteered to uphold as a husband and public servant and you risk losing both. I don't think the fact that a guy who betrays his wife and office in this fashion loses either his wife and/or his office represents a fault with our society at all. This is coming from someone that thinks both society and prostitutes would be vastly better off if prostitution were legalized and subject to the same laws that govern any other business. I agree with what you are saying re: contractual agreements (i.e. marriage). My point was, that perhaps expecting people to make these lifelong commits of absolute monogamy is unrealistic. As evidenced by the number of married citizens engaging in extra-marital affairs (caught, or otherwise). I know personally, I've never had a woman NOT cheat on me. Perhaps the expectations we place on one another are unrealistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Couloir Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 What pray tell is the "legal prostitution thing?" Buying a gal dinner and getting some at the end of the evening? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I would agree women do it too, but not as often as men. Or men just get caught more!!! I dunno. He is a married man, having sex with prostitutes. The prostitutes are women, having sex with married men. Different sides of the same coin, if you ask me. Of course, only the men offend you, right? I don't buy this bullshit "men are scum and women aren't" argument. Women are just as fucked up as men, sexually and otherwise. Pointing at the mud on someone else's flippers doesn't improve your own swimming. I wasn't clear or you misinterpreted what I said - I was only talking about men and women politicians involved in sex scandals - I think male politicians get caught more. I don't approve or condone of prostitution in any way. And I neer said men are scum and women aren't...did I say that? I don't think so. What is it about prostitution that you are opposed to? I personally feel bad for prostitutes, especially when they suffer at the hands of pimps, etc - but most of the things that make me feel bad for them stem from the fact that it's illegal, and could be remedied by changing the law. In places where it's legal - it's a voluntary exchange between consenting adults, and I think the scope for a moral critique is limited to a personal distaste for the practice. I don't think that there's any reasonable legal basis for prohibiting the practice amongst adults. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grtmtnchic Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I agree with what you are saying re: contractual agreements (i.e. marriage). My point was, that perhaps expecting people to make these lifelong commits of absolute monogamy is unrealistic. As evidenced by the number of married citizens engaging in extra-marital affairs (caught, or otherwise). I know personally, I've never had a woman NOT cheat on me. Perhaps the expectations we place on one another are unrealistic. Very interesting, Rob. And I agree. I don't believe in marriage - it's a faulty institution with unrealistic expectations - and people get married for mostly the wrong reasons. Marriage was begun as a way for the church to assert reproductive control. There's about 1 in 10 marriages of people I know that make me want to ever be married. The other 9 in 10 make me SOOOOO happy to be single. And I've never had a guy NOT cheat on me! Probably why we both have such strong opinions here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minx Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 marriage is PITA. you either choose to work your ass off at it for whatever the perceived benefits of it are. or you don't. i'm not really sure its worth it. its really not much harder to get divorced than it is to break-up with someone. in some ways, i think its a bigger commitment to stick out the tough times when there's no legal obligation to do so. people get married for anyone of a number of reasons. it means different things to different people. that's cool and if you get married you should respect the reasons you decided to do it. i got married. for a number of reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grtmtnchic Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 In places where it's legal - it's a voluntary exchange between consenting adults In places where it's legal and no minors are involved and the prostitutes are not being coerced, I could be inclined to see it more as a business transaction where no parties are harmed, though that's a lot of "if's". I actually kind of admire the cajones of women like Heidi Fleiss for creating such a successful business out of prostitution, but it still comes back to mostly married men who are hiring prostitutes. Is that right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 And I neer said men are scum and women aren't...did I say that? I don't think so. i think that's the supersecret cc.com female-to-male filter in effect. sometimes people just hear stuff that was never said I don't think that is exclusive to cc.com... I say things all the time and my wife hears something totally different that what I said. I think it is a universal male-female communication disconnect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 If their wives didn't care, would you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grtmtnchic Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Jeez, this site just sucks you in, doesn't it. I gotta go do some work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minx Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 nope...whatever arrangements make a marriage work. no worries. none of my business Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 What pray tell is the "legal prostitution thing?" Buying a gal dinner and getting some at the end of the evening? Most civilized countries in the world have government oversight on the houses of pleasure, and it is not just legal, but enjoyable to shop for services of pleasure. You may have heard of the red light district in Amsterdam? 3-4 street over to the SW is the real deal, where tourists are rare and $10-$20 (1974-1976 dollars) will get you a long audience with an attractive young woman who's goal is to only make you happy: because she has a great life, she gets paid for sex. You go to any working class city in Germany and throughout Europe the same thing applies, maybe better. Cologne (Koln) has an 8 story whorehouse where every kink, proclivity or enjoyable activity can be acted out. Girls come in every sizes, shape, texture, color and attitude. Best of all, the state ensures that the transaction is smooth for both sides as they have a financial interest. So, the girls are protected from predators and tested weekly. Of course, I've been with the same good woman 28 years now, and only have old memories, but $5500, WOW! Times do change. [rant]Prostitution should be legal, prostitutes should be respected and have an enjoyable profitable job instead of often drug riddled prey- shit on and exploited by pimps, customers and police alike in this country. [/rant] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grtmtnchic Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 If their wives didn't care, would you? You mean if I was a prostitute, the wife, or a regular citizen of this society? If I was the wife and I didn't care...crap, I'd wonder what the hell was wrong with me. If I was a prosititue...crap, I'd wonder what the hell was wrong with me! If I was a regular citizen who didn't mind married men sleeping with prostitutes...crap, I'd want to be a part of another society. Maybe these are just my personal hang-ups, but, yeah, I guess you could say I just have a problem with prostitution! Ha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 The effect that this sort of thing will have on your life in this society will vary in direct proportion to the extent that you've violated codes of conduct that you volunteered to uphold. If you are a single guy who is not holding, or interested in holding public office, you can fly to Nevada and have at it and the effect on your life will be negligible, aside from whatever diseases you contract. If you are a married man holding public office, you've accepted constraints on your behavior that are vastly different than a single, private citizen has to live with in exchange for the benefits that stem from marriage and public office. Violate the oaths that you volunteered to uphold as a husband and public servant and you risk losing both. I don't think the fact that a guy who betrays his wife and office in this fashion loses either his wife and/or his office represents a fault with our society at all. This is coming from someone that thinks both society and prostitutes would be vastly better off if prostitution were legalized and subject to the same laws that govern any other business. I agree with what you are saying re: contractual agreements (i.e. marriage). My point was, that perhaps expecting people to make these lifelong commits of absolute monogamy is unrealistic. As evidenced by the number of married citizens engaging in extra-marital affairs (caught, or otherwise). I know personally, I've never had a woman NOT cheat on me. Perhaps the expectations we place on one another are unrealistic. What happens to his marriage is between him and his wife. If he was forthright about his habits and she was cool with it, then there's no basis for anyone to ground their critique of the guy on a betrayal of his wife. What happens to his political career is a matter for the voters and the courts to decide. Not sure what happens to a governor who is convicted of something like this in NY. If the law allows it, and the voters want him to stay in office, then the only consequence for the guy is that some people may lower their personal opinion of him. If the expectations associated with any particular relationship are unrealistic, then that's the fault of the parties in the relationship IMO. Neither the church nor the state have any power to compel anyone to abide by any particular standard of fidelity anymore, and society pretty much leaves it to the individuals concerned to define the parameters of the relationship that they're in so - if monogamy's not your thing, and it seems like too much of a stretch, then it's incumbent on you to find a partner who's cool with that either by stating that from the start or divorcing whoever you're with that can't deal (before you cheat) and finding someone new who can. I'd agree with you that the rules that many of us live by require that we overcome much of our biological programming, but I think that applies to most of the rules that govern social interactions in a civilized society. Seems like accepting that temptation of various kinds will beset you throughout your life - the urge to be violent, the urge to cheat - makes it easier to deal with the said urges in a way that's consistent with the code of conduct that you've decided that you are going to try to live with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Yngve Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 i really don't see why someone would get more out of using a prostitute than just masturbating, especially because any possible fluid exchange would be kept to zero to prevent spreading STIs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Maybe these are just my personal hang-ups, but, yeah, I guess you could say I just have a problem with prostitution! Ha! Personally, I could never pay for sex. I don't like sex without love. Plus, I'm way too shy for that kind of thing. But I don't really care what other people are into. Hell, I'm into weird shit, too. Life is too short for arbitrary rules. Maybe if people didn't depend on other people for their own happiness, there wouldn't be so much hurt. Easier said than done, I guess. Shit, what do I know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Never been cheated on (that I'm aware of), and never cheated on anyone (quite sure of that). Don't think it's really all that difficult to do if you are a regular guy. If you are a rock star, and constantly have hot chicks flinging themselves at you, you probably deserve some kind of trophy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grtmtnchic Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Maybe if people didn't depend on other people for their own happiness, there wouldn't be so much hurt. Easier said than done, I guess. Shit, what do I know? Seems you know quite a lot - well put. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Marriage was begun as a way for the church to assert reproductive control. That's nonsense. Marriage was not invented by "the church" - I assume you mean the "Catholic" church. You are aware, for example, that the dominant culture in which Christianity arose - the Roman Empire - had an institution of marriage, are you not? As have most cultures and peoples on this planet - whether "religious" or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 i really don't see why someone would get more out of using a prostitute than just masturbating, especially because any possible fluid exchange would be kept to zero to prevent spreading STIs. I've never paid for sex, but I've been to plenty of strip clubs in my youth, and I have to agree with your sentiment. I always thought - "man this is for losers - what's the point?". If you have to pay for it, you're lame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Our laws have only served to make a bunch of other wise fine people criminals. Closer to home: today Seattle news: Link "Man reports 'theft by escort' to police By BRAD WONG P-I REPORTER A Seattle man who hired an escort to "have fun" told police that she stole $170 from him after she went to her car to fetch some condoms. The man, who is in his 50s and lives on Whitman Avenue North near Lake Union, had called the escort after spotting an advertisement in the Feb. 21 edition of The Stranger, a police report filed Thursday said. The woman arrived at his apartment late last month for the rendezvous. He agreed to pay her $150 to "have fun" and $20 to cover her gas. "At some point into the fun," the woman asked the man whether he had condoms, according to the report. Upon hearing that he did not, she said she would get some from her car. As the man waited for her to return, he looked out his window and realized the escort was driving away in a silver car. Since that night, he has called her "numerous times" to get his money back. "But she has not answered or returned his calls," the report said. The man even called The Stranger to inform the newspaper of what happened. The police officer who took the report told the man it is against the law in Seattle and the state of Washington to pay someone for sex. But the man wanted to file a police report in case the woman "was doing this to more of her customers." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Our laws have only served to make a bunch of other wise fine people criminals. Closer to home: today Seattle news: Link "Man reports 'theft by escort' to police By BRAD WONG P-I REPORTER A Seattle man who hired an escort to "have fun" told police that she stole $170 from him after she went to her car to fetch some condoms. The man, who is in his 50s and lives on Whitman Avenue North near Lake Union, had called the escort after spotting an advertisement in the Feb. 21 edition of The Stranger, a police report filed Thursday said. The woman arrived at his apartment late last month for the rendezvous. He agreed to pay her $150 to "have fun" and $20 to cover her gas. "At some point into the fun," the woman asked the man whether he had condoms, according to the report. Upon hearing that he did not, she said she would get some from her car. As the man waited for her to return, he looked out his window and realized the escort was driving away in a silver car. Since that night, he has called her "numerous times" to get his money back. "But she has not answered or returned his calls," the report said. The man even called The Stranger to inform the newspaper of what happened. The police officer who took the report told the man it is against the law in Seattle and the state of Washington to pay someone for sex. But the man wanted to file a police report in case the woman "was doing this to more of her customers." BTW, I profoundly disagree with the notion that legalizing prostitution eliminates all the baggage for women in this industry. The evidence is that most if not all of these women were abused as children, have low self-esteem, are controlled by others, and turn to drugs and suicide in higher proportions than average. YOU as a horny male might be getting something out of legalization, but don't fool yourself into believing these women would have a "great life". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minx Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 (edited) i really don't see why someone would get more out of using a prostitute than just masturbating, especially because any possible fluid exchange would be kept to zero to prevent spreading STIs. I've never paid for sex, but I've been to plenty of strip clubs in my youth, and I have to agree with your sentiment. I always thought - "man this is for losers - what's the point?". If you have to pay for it, you're lame. marriage has been put in place by most cultures at some point for one reason or another. religious, control, and quite often financial. "you marry our daughter and promise to feed and house her and we'll give you a dowery" and sometimes the merging of families and their businesses. Edited March 10, 2008 by minx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 BTW, I profoundly disagree with the notion that legalizing prostitution eliminates all the baggage for women in this industry. The evidence is that most if not all of these women were abused as children, have low self-esteem, are controlled by others, and turn to drugs and suicide in higher proportions than average. YOU as a horny male might be getting something out of legalization, but don't fool yourself into believing these women would have a "great life". You're right. It works out so much better for them when they are arrested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 marriage has been put in place by most cultures at some point for one reason or another. religious, control, and quite often financial. "you marry our daughter and promise to feed and house her and we'll give you a dowery" Financial - yes. Religious control? I think that's weakly supported. What is more important and neglected here in this discussion is societal stability. People make rules on how to live and norms of behavior because the absence of these rules is chaos and destruction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minx Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 regardless, i think marriage is overrated but you can argue for societal stability and i won't think you're an idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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