Climbing on Double Ropes

[d.spoc]

For the last year or so I have been climbing on double ropes (or Half ropes). There seems to be loads of info on WHY (or why not) to climb on double ropes, but not very much on HOW TO's, NO-No's, and TIPS and TRICKS. For example, Freedom of The Hills has only about four sentences on them. Can anyone who has Double or Half Rope experience help compile info on this?

 

Here are some off the top of my head...

 

"Rules":

1/ Do not clip the two ropes into the same piece of pro as the two ropes (during a fall) may move at different rates and cut each other.

2/ For the same same reason as above, do not twist the ropes around each other.

3/ Consider that the first pieces of pro on each half rope could be subject to an upward and outward force in the event of a fall.

 

 

 

"Tips":

1/ Consider rapping only 30m at a time (on only one of the ropes) to keep the other as back up ( for caucht ropes), reducing tangles on varried terrain.

2/ When belaying two seconds, have them climb at similar rates as the ropes will be more easily be payed out on the next lead.

3/ Set up a regular system for which rope colour will be on your lef tor right to avoid confusion on the wall. IE: bLue = Left side, oRange = Right side.

4/ Practice untangling rope twists from your harness tie-ins before starting a multi-pitch. This wiil avoid untying from the ropes mid climb.

[Dane]

Your first rule is a guide, not a rule and imo not worth mentioning when you consider twin ropes have to be clipped into every piece. Twins are generally a bit smaller in dia. (my twins are 7.8mm) than dbls and have no documented failures of being cut by the second rope.

 

 

Tips? Be patient when dealing with dbl or twins. They offer some real advantages if you take your time and flake them and stack them cleanly. Fastest way to have a birds nest is get pissed and try to violently shake out a tangle.

 

One of the few good reasons to use a dbl rope system is the ability to do longer rappels. If I were going to suggest 30m ( who sets anchors at 100 feet these days? ) rappels I'd go to single 70m or 100m rope. Not that impressed with a single 70 because it is too short for anything but a 35m rappel. You'll end up using the 50M rope stances on anything fixed and come up short. 70m ropes are not a bunch better than a 50M rope on lead but they are heavier. Few climbs out there that don't have a natural stance inside 50m or 60m.

 

Part of the problem I see is we still have many, many anchors set up for dbl 50 meter (or even 150ft) ropes. Now we have a lot of 70m ropes being used and even more 60m ropes out there.

 

Both old and new anchors are not matching up well. How can they?

 

I use twin 60s to get as much distance on each lead as possible compared to the weight I have to carry for a full length rappel.

 

A super light single and a tag line might be a lighter system but there is no redundancy available with a tag line. Plus when you tie in all the ropes come out of the pack..which I also like weight wise.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[d.spoc]

Maybe I should have been clearer on the first "Rule"...

 

My understanding of Twin Ropes (I haven't ever climbed on Twin Ropes) is that you always clip both twins into each piece of pro; the twins are not designed be led on as single rope strands. Doubles on the other hand, are supposed to be clipped into pro in an alternating manner (more or less); the result being only one rope is clipped into any one caribeaner. Since, on say a wandering route, each double rope takes a different path with different amounts of each rope in the system, they behave differently in the event of a fall. When weighted, they will tighten at different rates. If the two ropes run along side each other (or are clipped through the same beaner) they will move pass each other, creating friction, and heat, and this can be damaging to the ropes (and climber!).

 

Does that make more sense?

[d.spoc]

Thanks for your tip:

 

"Be patient when dealing with dbl or twins. They offer some real advantages if you take your time and flake them and stack them cleanly. Fastest way to have a birds nest is get pissed and try to violently shake out a tangle."

 

[Baltoro]

Per Dane's comment: Yes twins do get clipped into the same biner. That does not mean doubles can do that as well. Like d.spoc pointed out, the ropes take different paths and in the event of a fall are going to have different stretch characteristics. That means they are going to rub up against one another. Highly unlikely it's going to cut your ropes but pretty likley that it might melt part of the sheath and give your rope that nice glossy look we all go for. Twins on the other hand run together and should have similiar stretch characterstics in a fall and thus don't risk rubbing together and generating heat.

 

Lots of people seem to use doubles at twins. While this is probably fine, they are not rated the same way and you eliminate the benefits of double ropes (at least for going up). If you have to use doubles as twins on the way up to minimize the clusterf*** then you need to spend more time cragging with them to figure them out or not use double ropes because you're just adding more hassle without the benefit.

 

Now that my rant is over with, here's some things I've used that has worked well for me.

 

Communication is key: It requires more dialogue between belayer and leader. And it starts before you leave the ground and before you leave each belay.

 

Before leaving the ground, make sure the ropes are not twisted as if you start with a mess on terra firma it's only going to get worse at that crowded hanging belay with your partner's ass in your face. Then figure out who is leading which pitches. Are you leading in blocks, etc.? You don't want to incorporate the rope into a belay anchor and find out that your follower thought you were going to lead the next pitch.

 

Before you leave each belay, discuss briefly how the pitch goes, particularly for the follower who hasn't done the route before. Give them an idea what to expect while belaying. "Once I'm over the little roof above us it traverses right for 20ft. and then angles back left. Then comes the slab and I'll likely run it out a bit there. The anchor is just after that but it's natural and kind of hard to frig together so it may take a few." This keeps your belayer from assuming you've died as soon as you go out of sight. This also lets them know when they can ingnore you entirely, dropping both hands from the rope and look in the pack for your food or check out that spider on the ledge up close. Seriously though it very much reduces the confusion at the belay and on lead if both parties have some idea what the Hell the other guy is doing.

 

Be familiar with communication through tugs:

One tug- "Off belay!"

One tug in reply- "Belay is off!"

One tug (after anchor is rigged)- "On belay!"

One tug in reply- "Climbing!"

One tug in reply reply- "Climb on!"

Three or four frantic tugs- "Slack you Prick F***! I F***ing hate you and don't know why I brought your Noob Ass! Go back to RC.com, just give me a foot more F***ing rope before I lob off and your head is forever stuck up my ass!!"

Slack in reply "Sorry, uh, umm... the ropes were tangled and I was just fixing them." -this repy works particularly well if the ropes belong to the leader and/or the leader stacked the ropes.

 

Simply using the red rope on tne right and the blue rope on the left doesn't cut it (bad word choice). Use a one syllable word for one rope, like red and a two syllable word for the left rope. The only one that comes to mind which I've personally used is' "F***ing blue asshole!" Now that's five syllables but you get the idea. 140ft. out around a corner it's really hard if not impossible to hear and red and blue sound really close.

 

Plan your pro and rope paths out. Hosing yourself ten feet into a long pitch can make life miserable. Think, "How would the ropes run in Freedom of the Hills?" and try to repliacte that. Obviously nature doesn't yield ideal conditions but strive to keep the ropes from crossing too much, especially on wandering pitches. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO ALTERNATE PLACEMENTS BETWEEN EACH ROPE! I try not to go miles between them as those things are skinny but if you clip every other placement for each rope you're likely missing out on a lot of the rope drag benefits.

 

Make sure that they are your partners ropes!! This is critical. That way any tangles or issues you have along the way are his fault, not yours!! This works out great. That and then your shiny new doubles stay at home for gear fondling later.

 

One common mistake with doubles is that partners will each buy one rope to offset the cost. BAD IDEA!! You will likely not be speaking to each other after using these once and then your each stuck with a rope that's only good for glacier travel and we all know what happens next. Soon you join the Mounties and wear long underwear under your shorts and gaiters for cragging. It's all downhill from there...

 

All that crap being said, doubles are great for the right routes with the right people. They are a nice tool to have in the quiver but misappliaction or misues will yield less than desirable results. If you don't like them, it's likely not the ropes fault. It's probably yours. Afterall, if the Brits will use them for some of the world's sketchiest trad and you can't make them work on the Great Northern Slab 5.6 3 pitches Grade -1 then no amount of internet spray advice will help you.

 

Enjoy and report back!

[mattp]

All the advice here is quite good but I will say that I've been climbing on double ropes for 25 years and I've taken and seen taken plenty of whippers and where the "proper" procedure of keeping them running through separate carabiners was not employed I have never seen any significant rope damage result from it. Similarly, German Climbers used to use 9mm ropes that were manufactured as "doubles" in the application known as "twins" as standard practice and I don't recall ever hearing that anybody was hurt because they didn't properly absorb a shock.

 

Like I said: you are getting good advice here and I am not advocating that you ignore proper practices.

 

But, as long as your belayer doesn't get mixed up and forget to hold on to the rope, or feeds out slack when they should be taking in the rope, you are pretty much always going to be as safe or safer climbing on double ropes than you might be on a single. And I believe this is true even if you fail to use that extra 'biner or draw to keep them running separately when you clip both ropes to the same gear or if you employ the "unrecommended" practice of using doubles as twins. Learn to do it right, but don't feel you have to freak out when for one reason or another you or your partner "breaks the rules."

 

The biggest "danger" in using double ropes is there is always that potential for a belayer not used to using them to do things wrong and allow extra slack or to get tangled up right when you don't need that kind of problem. There may be some compromise of the ropes' engineered stretch and absorptive qualities if you don't do things right, and even if both parties are quite experienced there is always the potential for some good old fashioned rope salad.

 

Overall, double ropes are great in a lot of different situations and their advantages, even for relatively straight forward cragging, are often overlooked. These include being able to have a tight belay through your last piece as you reach for the next clip, reducing rope drag, being able to leave a high piece for a top rope while retreating from a lead and still having a belay through the lower gear placements, being able to make double rope rappels, belaying two seconds, having an extra rope when something gets fouled up, and the obvious advantage when sharp edges may compromise the lead rope.

[TrogdortheBurninator]

Hmmm, a one tug communication system sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

 

I agree with Matt on most of this stuff. I really dont see how double clipping on occasion can be a significantly larger safety risk than climbing on twins. Even twins arent going to have a perfectly equal running distance, so there will still be risk of rope-rope friction. Are there any actual documented cases of a failure from this? In regards to double clipping, I think it is good to think about the reasons for doing it. Both reasons I do it probably dont warrant it, but here they are: Double clipping limits rope stretch in a fall, but might increase force on pro. On bolts, this should be fine, and it might keep you off a ledge. In truth though, just one rope will probably slow down your fall sufficiently that the ledge will be inconsequential anyway. This brings me to my second and more common reason, which is the psychological benefit of looking down and seeing two ropes clipped in between your legs. Sometimes that is all the edge you need to climb without falling.

 

Tips for feeding slack:

 

When feeding slack on easy terrain, just play out both ropes simultaneously, even for clipping. This reduces clustering and means you dont have to do an readjusting (take in one, feed out other).

 

When feeding clipping slack on more difficult terrain (where pro is bomber) feed the clipping rope, while maintaining belay with the non clipping rope. After clipping rope is clipped, pull out a comparable amount of non clipping rope to what you just had. Now, as climber climbs past the pro, you can just bealy both ropes simultaneously again.

 

If you are genunienly worried about the quality of highest pro, and want to minimize the distance one would fall if the top piece blew, then by all means belay both ropes quasi-independently.

[hafilax]

Technically I think that rope manufacturers recommend using 2 biners when clipping both doubles to a piece. That is a PITA in my experience.

 

I read a recommendation, somewhere (on supertopo I think), that you can start off clipping them as twins and switch to doubles but you should avoid switching to twin after clipping as doubles. When using doubles with 2 seconds you often have to clip both ropes in order to protect both followers. Using 2 biners on each piece would be heavy and take for ever.

 

All just rules of thumb of course. You do what you have to do.

[chriss]

I keep hearing this rumor that clipping 1/2 ropes in the same biner will result in the ropes "moving at different rates" during a fall.

Are you falling further or faster on 1 rope than the other? No. Both ropes will move at the same rate. 1 rope may have more load than the other. But, so what. If they're both tied to you, they will move at the same rate.

 

[Baltoro]

Chriss that's not really true. The ropes will stretch at different rates. What if you clip them together for a piece or two (twin) then switch to doubles mode, then you fall on one rope entirely by itself, the other rope slack to a piece that you didn't fall far enough to weight? They're not going to move equally in that case are they?

 

I said up above that this was a no-no per manufacturers recs and a couple of people pointed out that you're not going to notice a differrence for 99.9999% of the falls you take. In theory you shouldn't do it because the ropes will move independently of one another. In practice your going to be fine but to say that both ropes will move at the same rate is false.

[Dechristo]

 

One of the biggest issues for me has been a belayer who couldn't pay out rope fast enough - the rope drag was so bad, it felt like I was dragging a wood cookstove up the face.

 

By the end of two continuous 60m pitches at altitude, I was fucking worn out.

[JosephH]

When feeding slack on easy terrain, just play out both ropes simultaneously, even for clipping. This reduces clustering and means you dont have to do an readjusting (take in one, feed out other).

 

When feeding clipping slack on more difficult terrain (where pro is bomber) feed the clipping rope, while maintaining belay with the non clipping rope. After clipping rope is clipped, pull out a comparable amount of non clipping rope to what you just had. Now, as climber climbs past the pro, you can just bealy both ropes simultaneously again.

 

If you are genunienly worried about the quality of highest pro, and want to minimize the distance one would fall if the top piece blew, then by all means belay both ropes quasi-independently.

 

Most of the advice in this thread is on when, why, or how (clipping) to use twins / half ropes where as Trog hits it here with his post and gets to the real heart of the matter - belaying. Belaying with half/double ropes is an advanced belaying skill no matter how you look at it. It is not easy, particularly when the leader is out of sight. The 'handwork' (fingerwork) involved with individually belaying two ropes is fairly complex particularly when the occasional circumstance arrives where you need let out and take up slack on different ropes at [ideally] the same time. Coping strategies and deft finger work are called for and you really want to maintain a strict attention to the leader and to the details of the job at hand.

[crackers]

I climbed on doubles a bunch over six years when climbing relatively low grade routes at the gunks, which tend to follow weaknesses and perforce wander all over the place. I would say that using doubles is pretty simple, but using them well takes much more practice than most things we use in climbing. The below are my opinions about climbing fun trad routes with doubles and aren't about doing alpine stuff...

 

I think your tip #4 is a bit foolish. You shouldn't have much if any twistage of the ropes if you're doing a good job with your runners and your game plan for the ropes. You will have incredibly bad twistage your first couple dozen pitches, and you're right that you should come up with some coping strategies. I'd recommend making it simple: tie off on rope to the anchor, fix the Cluster F*ck and repeat the process.

 

I would add some additional advice: the person who's really going to make everything into a mess is actually the leader. The leader of the first pitch really needs to have a good method of organizing both ropes and keeping it everything safe and tidy.

 

You've got to decide how to cope with two very different situations: swapping leads or one leader. I highly recommend using an autoblock above the belayer (situations change, blahblahblah) for both situations, especially when you're starting out with doubles. I use a plaquette magique and the leader just steals it when they leave the belay.

 

If you're swapping leads, just anchor yourself in with clove hitches on the anchor with both ropes. After adjusting the cloves to keep you tight and provide enough room, you stack each rope on its anchor strand. You'll either steal your partners belay device to belay their lead, or you'll have a second one to belay with when they pass you. I'd recommend figuring out rack switching strategies as well, but I'm sure you're good at that already...

 

When one person is leading, I do something a bit strange and clip into the belay with two slings with biners, not hitches. I stack the rope onto the slings. My partner comes up, they clove hitch into the anchor, we transfer the ropes over to their ropes and away we go.

 

I really think this is where you'll have the most problems starting out, or at least, here and that pesky rope drag. Falls on doubles are interesting, and you should be aware of how much more rope stretch there is with such thin ropes. I'm pretty sure that I've had my ankles saved at least once by using doubles, and I think they're a really great tool to have for pushing your limits in varied terrain or routes that wander back and forth.

 

Good Luck!

 

 

[chriss]

Chriss that's not really true. The ropes will stretch at different rates. What if you clip them together for a piece or two (twin) then switch to doubles mode, then you fall on one rope entirely by itself, the other rope slack to a piece that you didn't fall far enough to weight? They're not going to move equally in that case are they?

 

I said up above that this was a no-no per manufacturers recs and a couple of people pointed out that you're not going to notice a differrence for 99.9999% of the falls you take. In theory you shouldn't do it because the ropes will move independently of one another. In practice your going to be fine but to say that both ropes will move at the same rate is false.

 

I should have been more descriptive in a post. I was refering to 2 ropes in the top biner, taking the force of the fall.

In theory the ropes could be moving in different directions, not just different speeds, in the lower biners. But there is not much of a chance of that but it could happen. I think the unweighted rope will be forced to move by the weighted rope before it damages it.

[jmace]

Dont twins stretch more thereby absorbing more force than a double..?

 

if thats true then falling on a double rope system with both ropes in one piece will put more stress on the pro than a twin system. The better thing to do is only clip one double rope to a piece thereby halfing the force on that piece as opposed to both doubles clipped in.

 

I climb on twins and doubles each has its pro's and cons, however I only climb on a single when cragging

[G-spotter]

Instad of cliping two skinny ropes through one biner, double up pro. put in two pieces of pro close together and clip one skinny rope to each one. That's how the Brits do it.

[hafilax]

If you look at the Beal Joker, it has single (8.2kN), half(6kN) and twin(9.5kN) impact force ratings so it can be used in each of those applications with trade offs. As expected the twin has the highest impact force but the half is significantly lower than the single.

 

The measurement system is as follows:

* Values required by the CE standard:

• Single rope: Impact force lower than 12 kN holding the first factor 1.77 fall with a mass of 80 kg.

• Half rope: Impact force lower than 8 kN holding the first factor 1.77 fall with a mass of 55 kg.

• Twin rope: Impact force lower than 12 kN holding the first factor 1.77 fall with a mass of 80 kg on 2 strands.

 

They seem to assume that some impact force will be absorbed by the half rope system. Either that or using half ropes makes you 25kg lighter.

[jmace]

The joker in my mind is sort of silly..there is not one single benefit of having a 9.1 mm half or single..7.5 mm twin is great for alpine, or a 8 or 8.5 double

 

the brits do it the right way

[JosephH]

Oh, but there is, I use pretty burly half-ropes on some FA's with a lot of loose and sharp rock. I have 7.8 twin/halfs that I wouldn't go near those routes with. I'm definitely in the 9.n range and only stout damn ones at that. I'm not overwhelmingly concerned with the twin/half/single rating in that 9.n territory - most will work fine in a half-rope capacity. Twins are another story - not much point in burly twins.

[d.spoc]

I have 7.8 twin/halfs that I wouldn't go near those routes with.

 

Can you clarify? Half ropes and Twins are different. Half ropes and Doubles are the same. What do you mean here?

 

 

 

[d.spoc]

I attempted to summarize the above posts.

 

This is a discussion thread about techniques for climbing on Double (aka Half Ropes). There is a lot of literature of WHY to climb on Doubles/Half Ropes, but no really information on HOW. This is about HOW. A work in progress...

 

Definitions:

 

Double or Half-Ropes: Half (or double) ropes generally have a little "(1/2)" symbol on them. With halves, generally speaking, as you lead up, you alternate clipping one rope or the other at least until the route starts to traverse or zigzag, then you need to plan clips to keep the ropes running straight as possible. So for example, you might lead up, put in a piece, clip blue, lead up a bit more, put in another piece, clip red, and so on. When you take a fall, you're caught by just one of the ropes.

http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/TwoRopes.htm'>http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/TwoRopes.htm

 

Twin Ropes: ‘are generally marked with a little sideways "8", as in the mathematical symbol for infinity. The idea with twins is that you treat them like a single, and always clip both ropes through every piece. When you fall, you very much want to be caught by both ropes.’ http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/TwoRopes.htm

 

 

Best Practices to Consider:

 

1/ Do not clip the two ropes into the same piece of pro as the two ropes (during a fall) may move at different rates and damage each other.[This may be negligible in reality, but a best practice none the less].

2/ For the same same reason as above, do not twist the ropes around each other.

3/ Consider that the first pieces of pro on each half rope could be subject to an upward and outward force in the event of a fall.

4/ Ensure you have a ‘clean’ rope system (no twists, knots, etc) before leaving the ground, this will help avoid on the wall issues. If you find the ropes twisted for some reason, consider tying off to the belay and fixing it.

5/ Be clear on who is climbing what pitch is useful. Are you leading in blocks? How will this affect your anchor and flaking choices?

6/ As belaying doubles takes more practice, take time to review the route with the belayer. IE: "Once I'm over the little roof above us it traverses right for 20ft. and then angles back left. Then comes the slab and I'll likely run it out a bit there. The anchor is just after that but it's natural and kind of hard to frig together so it may take a few." You can highlight sections where you want a tight belay, a looser belay, and so on…

7/ Plan out your rope paths and gear choices when possible. Think, "How would the ropes run in Freedom of the Hills?" and try to repliacte that.

8/ Doubles are designed to be clipped independently of each other. Where rope drag is not an issue, clip the ropes in an alternating fashion. Where rope drag is a cosideration, clip in a manner which reduces drag. Ropes should generally run in as straight a line as possible to reduce drag.

 

 

Other Tips to Consider:

 

1/ Consider rapping only 30m at a time (on only one of the ropes) to keep the other as back up (for stuck ropes), reducing tangles on varried terrain.

2/ When belaying two seconds, have them climb at similar rates as the ropes will be more easily be paid out on the next lead.

3/ Set up a regular system for which rope colour will be on your left or right to avoid confusion on the wall. IE: bLue = Left side, oRange = Right side.

4/ Practice untangling rope twists from your harness tie-ins before starting a multi-pitch. This will avoid untying from the ropes mid climb.

5/ Be patient when dealing with dbl or twins. They offer some real advantages if you take your time and flake them and stack them cleanly. Fastest way to have a birds nest is get pissed and try to violently shake out a tangle.

6/Communication. Dial this and doubles life will be easier. What are your calls? ‘Clipping Red!” “Clipping Blue!” “Take Red” “Slack Blue”. Ensure you have communication system that makes sense and works in the wind or other hard to hear situations [this goes for all climbing really].

7/ Brits have historically used them (each climbing partner bought one half rope. This may not be so practical. Manufacturers recommend climbing with the same two halves equally so that they stretch and wear equally.

8/ Your belayer, if not experienced with Doubles, may be your greatest ‘danger’.

9/ RE: Double clipping pro.

*Can reduce rope stretch in the event of a fall (could prevent a decking [could be negligeble). It also increase impact force on the pro (concern for gear pro, but less of a concern on a good bolt).

* Double clipping can also provide a psychological edge.

Avoiding the issue

* Rope manufacturers recommend using 2 biners (or the pros biner and a draw to ensure the ropes run separately) when clipping both doubles to a piece.

*You can [possibly] start off clipping doubles as twins and switch to doubles (alternating) but you should avoid switching to twin after clipping as doubles. [This seems dubious]

* When using doubles with 2 seconds you often have to clip both ropes in order to protect both followers.

* Instead of clipping two skinny ropes through one biner, double up pro. put in two pieces of pro close together and clip one skinny rope to each one. That's how the Brits do it.

10/Feeding out rope:

-On Easy terrain: Just feed out both ropes as one to eliminate uneven rope feeding.

-On more challenging terrain:

-A: where gear is ‘bomber’: feed the clipping rope, while maintaining belay with the non clipping rope. After clipping rope is clipped, pull out a comparable amount of non clipping rope to what you just had. Now, as climber climbs past the pro, you can just bealy both ropes simultaneously again.

-B: Where gear is questionable: If you are genunienly worried about the quality of highest pro, and want to minimize the distance one would fall if the top piece blew, then by all means belay both ropes quasi-independently.

11/Belaying requires extra finger and hand work, like when paying out and taking rope in on separate ropes. Some situation may not lend themselves to this. IE: Belaying with gloves in cold conditions.

12/ Highly recommended: belay second with an autoblock type belaydevice. Reverso, Reversino, or Black Diamond ATC Guide Belay Device are some products. Of course know how to use them too.

13/ If you're swapping leads, just anchor yourself in with clove hitches on the anchor with each rope you are tied into. After adjusting the cloves to keep you tight and provide enough room, you stack each rope on its anchor strand. Or simply flake the two rope together over your ‘daisy chains’.

14/ Be conscious of how much rope stretch there is on such skinny ropes; it can work for you (less impact), or against you (like falling from an overhanging route).

15/ On routes with lots of rope-cutting threats, you can use burly 9mm+ double ropes.

 

 

[TrogdortheBurninator]

pretty sure he means dual rated half/twins

[d.spoc]

Right. Thnx