Vertical or horizontal front points for water ice?

[northvanclimber]

For years I've been using crampons with horizontal front points for ice climbing (pure waterice, no mixed) and starting thinking the other day about switching to vertical points. However, after trolling through old threads there doesn't seem to be a total consensus that vertical points are neccesarily the best.

 

Any thoughts?

[letsroll]

I also would like to know. I use vertical for everything, but have yet to do a waterfall, alpine only. But I got a great deal on them

[jmace]

its like you guys have it backwards..I love my vertical points for water ice, they are like my axes, and horizontals for steep snow and mushy ice,more surface area relatively

 

that being said I doubt I would climb better or worse with either set up..dont think it matters too too much

[northvanclimber]

its like you guys have it backwards..I love my vertical points for water ice, they are like my axes, and horizontals for steep snow and mushy ice

 

no, i realize that this is the common logic. i've only been using horizontals for waterice so far because, probably like a lot of people, i bought horizontals first because i was mostly using them for alpine use. now that i'm doing much more waterice i was gonna buy a pair of verticals specifically for that.

 

however, my question really is: are verticals really that much better for water ice than horizontals? do you notice your feet feeling that much more secure with 'em? from some previous posts, people like don serl have suggested that horizontals can be plenty good for ice climbing so i just wanted to see what other people thought.

[Ken_p]

I found verticals to shear less ice and "fit" better in ice with a lot of vertical texture where a more delicate touch was preferred. I've climbed with the new BD Cyborgs and love 'em, but have done quite well in the same conditions with my BD Sabretooths. If you want versatility, go horizontal, should you be a bad ass ice guru who wants to do a lot of mixed as well, go vertical.

[Kraken]

to each his own i guess. I know a number of hard climbers though who climb WI6 with sabretooths so its not like one won't work for the other.

 

In candlestick ice vertical points can penetrate better. In pure flows, I don't think it really matters that much, but that's just me.

[G-spotter]

Vertical ice is under tension vertically, thus, it prefers to break horizontally. you see this when an icicle or a free-standing pillar breaks, it breaks horizontally and everything below the break falls off.

 

Horizontal points create a bigger horizontal crack. Vertical points create two vertical cracks.

 

So horizontal points break more ice, especially on steep ice. That's why vertical points are better for steep ice.

 

That's also why ice tool picks are vrtical and not horizontal.

[genepires]

To me, vertical frontpoints feel more secure and just "right" vs with horizontal points. How do you quantitify this? I don't know and it doesn't really matter. Do I need the extra advantage if there is any? Yes I do. If I was a uber hardman, I might not need the advantage and maybe even seek a little handicap to make it interesting.

 

So if you are asking for advice on this, I can assume that you are not a uber hardman. Hence I would say that the verticals would be advantagous.

[peter57]

According to Will Gadd (page 27 "Ice & Mixed Climbing")

 

"Horizontal frontpoints work far better for most pure ice climbing than vertical frontpoints......I challange any climber currently on vertical frontpoints to climb five pitches on a good horizonal frontpoint crampon and feel the difference."

 

Next time out I'm going to try my horizonal glacier crampons..after sharpening them.

[Hayduke]

I haven't climbed in a lot of different crampons-- maybe 4 or 5-- and I love my sabertooths. By far, the most secure, especially on waterfall ice.

[cheamclimber]

vertical for sure... especially cuz there usually replaceable and if you wear them out on mixed stuff you can replace the fp's instead of scrapping the crampon

[studklimer]

I agree with hayduke, the sabretooths seem to do quite well on steep ice. I've used them on mixed stuff as well, and they perform quite admirably.

[catbirdseat]

Vertical ice is under tension vertically, thus, it prefers to break horizontally. you see this when an icicle or a free-standing pillar breaks, it breaks horizontally and everything below the break falls off.

 

Horizontal points create a bigger horizontal crack. Vertical points create two vertical cracks.

 

So horizontal points break more ice, especially on steep ice. That's why vertical points are better for steep ice.

 

That's also why ice tool picks are vrtical and not horizontal.

Dru, that isn't the only reason. A horizontal pick would break because it would not be strong enough to stand the forces on it.

[Lub]

I used to climb with sabertooths and started climbing on mono-cyborgs this fall. As far as I'm concerned, the verticals are way better for steep ice. The mono/vertical points penetrate better and easier. You can be much more precise as well as gentle on delicate ice. I find myself barely kicking the ice.

 

Sabertooths felt a bit insecure on steep or technical ice, but for super fat or lower angle ice I'd rather climb with them.

 

Just my two.

[northvanclimber]

Thanks for all the replies. i think i might pick up a pair of cyborgs soon and get out onto the ice ASAP to try 'em out. will probably take along my old crampons (charlet moser black ices) so that i can see how they perform head to head.

 

now i just have to get over this cold

[cheamclimber]

^ Cyborgs kick ass by the way

[Lub]

Yes, I dig the cyborgs.

[catbirdseat]

^ Cyborgs kick ass by the way

The Cyborgs appear to be very similar to the G14. Would anyone care to compare and contrast the two designs?

[Lub]

The front antibott plates on the cyborg's can't be used when set up as mono-points. It appears that the antibotts can be used in any configuration on the G14's. I believe the G14's are also lighter, but you pay for it.

 

[catbirdseat]

The Cyborg's have toothed edges on some of the spikes compared to the smooth spikes of the G14. Do these teeth do anything? The idea would appear be to prevent the point from pulling out as on an ice tool pick, but this could also be a bad thing.

[G-spotter]

naw, the teeth hook on rock for mixed dummy

[Macson]

G14 come in step in and hybrid bindings. I think the cyborgs only come in step in.

[catbirdseat]

I think I would only be interested in the step in bindings. The hybrid don't give a very solid attachment for steep ice, in my opinion.

[genepires]

According to Will Gadd (page 27 "Ice & Mixed Climbing")

 

"Horizontal frontpoints work far better for most pure ice climbing than vertical frontpoints......I challange any climber currently on vertical frontpoints to climb five pitches on a good horizonal frontpoint crampon and feel the difference."

 

 

ah...what does a wanker from canada know about ice climbing? he doesn't even post here!

 

[ASmith]

^ Cyborgs kick ass by the way

The Cyborgs appear to be very similar to the G14. Would anyone care to compare and contrast the two designs?

 

Wouldn't be a better comparision to compare the Cyborgs to the Grival Rambo 4 since they both are each companies waterice crampons? Your thoughts on the Rambo.

 

I too are looking for a new set and are considering the Sabertooth, G12 or G14. Anyone used them for a comparison?