mandatory Iraq tours for Foreign Service employees

[TheJiggler]

Like almost everybody else has said, they don't have to go, they can quit. I think this will lead to people quitting and make people very disenchanted with their employer and be looking to find a better job. The qualified people will find other work and leave. Brain drain from the FSO.

 

Except a point was made earlier that those with seniority may well be able to skirt this assignment. If this is the case, then it is likely that only those that are green will be required to take a position in the "Green Zone".

 

 

This really does not seem to be the case however. It is primarrily mid level and Sr. FSOs who are getting the notifications.

[TheJiggler]

It may well be a way of getting rid of their shittiest employees. Send 'em to Iraq. Maybe they've decided Iraq is lost anyway so why send anyone competent?

 

I don't think it's going to help in recruiting new people. The problem here, is basically making the State Dept. a shitty place to work. It's harder to hire qualified people when the job you are offering sucks. The qualified people can get jobs elsewhere. The shitty employer is going to be stuck with the retards and closet cases.

 

You get what you pay for.

 

The size of the register (list of eligible hires) is now quite long. Most in my position are actually hoping people quit so they will be hired faster.

[Dechristo]

I would think many, not all, that apply for employment in such a government agency would not be self-serving solely. There are probably (hopefully) people that busy themselves with work based, in part, on a sense of duty.

 

I know I was "there" for much of my career.

[TheJiggler]

I would think many, not all, that apply for employment in such a government agency would not be self-serving solely. There are probably (hopefully) people that busy themselves with work based, in part, on a sense of duty.

 

I know I was "there" for much of my career.

 

It is the vast majority of the FSO. Most could easily find a higher paying job in the private sector, or take a pay cut just when they join.

[tvashtarkatena]

My reference was to high level Bush appointees, not FSO applicants.

[snugtop]

Btw, Marlou, you should apply if you want to. I came within .25 points of getting in (out of a 7-point scale) and I did not go to an elite school. They are changing the criteria to place more emphasis on foreign languages and job experience abroad, but it's not as elitist as you may think.

[Hayduke]

State Department Foreign Service Officers are some of the most educated, motivated and dedicated employees of the Federal government. There is a profound sense of duty to our nation that motivates most (if not all) FSOs. Tours in Iraq will not dissuade applicants-- believe me that in this instance the cream rises to the top. Chuck-- I think you're off the mark on this one.

 

Administrations come and go but the core of our diplomatic arm stays the same. These are the people who believe that diplomacy is the answer to finding world peace. Peace is the goal. It is a shame that the Bush administration has pushed aside the State Department and the Defense Department has become the primary decision maker on foreign policy. I believe it is the responsibility of the State Department to reassert its strength and help lead our country to a positive outcome in this national crisis. Condoleeza Rice has proven to be one of our worst Secretaries of State. I'm sure most FSOs agree.

 

As for not having access to the VA system and established treatment for PTSD, FSOs have much better benefits than the military. It's a terrible sin against our military that the VA system is so pitiful.

 

Jiggler, you think my opinion is simplistic. Well, it's not, though I don't fault you for thinking it is... this is a climbing website so I limit the amount of time spent in spray... maybe we'll have to meet up for a beer at a Pub Club and solve the world's problems over a few drinks. BTW, what cone are you?

 

 

 

[Serenity]

Although I would consider Iraq an uncomfortable tour, and even dangerous, there have been no incidents of FSO's being killed.

 

Blackwater Dyncorp, and DSS provide security for the Department of State, and no FSO's have been killed as a result of their hard work. DS Special Agent Steven Eric Sullivan was killed by rocket fire in Mosul in 2005.

 

http://www.state.gov/m/ds/rls/53693.htm

 

I suppose Baghdad in 2008 is not quite as fashionable as the embassy in Greece or Paris, but foreign service regardless of whether you wear a blue suit or digicam has it's hardships and should be endured. In 2003 and 2004 it was quite career enhancing to be at the embassy in Btown.

[olyclimber]

Hey, I'm getting ready to blow up the website for just a moment...just so you know

[Serenity]

The term is "Fire in the hole"

[olyclimber]

Well, only a small crater, but we've got them on the run now.

[TheJiggler]

FSOs do have good benefits, but not great. Realistically an entry level FSO paid about the same as a mid level office in the military. Considering the average starting FSO is about 28, has a graduate degree, speaks a foreign language and has some work experience this isn't very much. The point about not having a VA for FSOs is relevant. The VA, no matter how flawed, is a promise that if you are injured/crippled in the line of service, you will be cared for for life. FSOs have no such promise.

 

But reality of the matter is that most FSOs I've talked to simply are against the policy of being in Iraq. These are well educated worldly people with a deep understanding of Foreign Policy. Unlike their DOD counterparts they cannot be coerced into going. The worst that happens is that they can be fired. I suspect if the military couldn't put you in prison for refusing to go to Iraq, our numbers there would be tiny. It does look like the FS is a bunch of cry babies right now. On the surface they took an oath and now are reneging (though it is debatable that they took an oath to go to an active war zone). But the simple fact that the USG is having problems filling the post is VERY telling, and does not bode well.

 

Serenity: Its true that no FSOs have been killed in Iraq yet, though three DS employees have been. Its really a technicality that they were not FSOs. Also, few if any FSO draftees will be coming from Greece of Paris. More likely places like Phnom Penn, considered a 25% danger post BTW(I got an email from one 2 days ago stationed there who got a notification). Also, while in theory its true that doing a tour in Bagdad will be career enhancing, in practice it won't be. You are supposed to get first crack at good assignments on your next post, however with so many people going to Bagdad now, there simply are not enough good posts to go around.

 

[Serenity]

With 5+ years at the embassies in Baghdad and Kabul you're not really educating me much, but instead I have to be cautious in the manner in which I present my OPINION. That's not to say you're not 'read in' on the issues either. On this mobile platform, you and I could be 100 meters apart, and having a totally different experience. I understand that.

 

I think it's sad that people are unwilling to do their job, but not surprising, and in the end they'll be driven by their own convictions to take private sector jobs. It's sad not because they disagree with current policy, but because the mutinous manner in which they've raised the issue is unfortunate for them, and the American people.

 

It's not the end of the world, others will rise up with equal or more talent and take their places.

 

I would say that if you are talking to FSO's who are against the war in Iraq, you are simply talking to FSO's who are against the war in Iraq. That's not everyone's underlying viewpoint. The issue of corruption, duplicity, and outright lying to an occupying power masquerading as a liberator by the Iraqi's drive many people nuts.

 

Partisan politics plays a role. Many of the younger FSO's came on during Democratic tenures, with a divergent idealism, and now they feel disenfranchised to a point. Shouldn't matter, but it does. I left the military for the polar opposite reasons they will probably leave foreign service. "Com Si, Com Sa"

 

Most folks are able to stay focused on the task at hand, which they should be doing, and allow their superiors to drive the ship. Let's not forget that the majority of American people voted the current administration in, not once, but twice. The good news is that foreign policy is like a big ship, you can only swing the rudder over 2-3 degrees at a time, either port or starboard, and this carrier were on right now isn't going to shift much. Like it or not, we're in Baghdad for a long time to come.

 

Those that can't serve in the engine room, because they THINK they should be manning the helm are going to find themselves looking for new work soon. They have that luxury, and that right, and I'm in NO WAY saying I agree or disagree with their personal politics, only that when there is a job to do. Sometimes you have to just shut your mouth and get it done. Things will work themselves out eventually.

 

What I know about those places, and these issues is because I'm there. You and I might be in the same neighborhood, if so feel free to drop me a line. The British tend to enter foreign service specifically to get to places where they can do things like climb in the Hindu Kush, same with a lot of UN folks.

[Ducknut]

I don't have the time or patience to read the whole thread, but as a federal government employee you are subject to "directed reassignments", as in your job has been transferred to Baghdad, you start on Monday. You have the choice to show up or not. If you don't show up, then you are insubordinate.

 

BTW, in the parlance of the U.S. Government, FS is Forest Service, FSO is Foreign Service Officer.

[joblo7]

With 5+ years at the embassies in Baghdad and Kabul you're not really educating me much, but instead I have to be cautious in the manner in which I present my OPINION. That's not to say you're not 'read in' on the issues either. On this mobile platform, you and I could be 100 meters apart, and having a totally different experience. I understand that.

 

I think it's sad that people are unwilling to do their job, but not surprising, and in the end they'll be driven by their own convictions to take private sector jobs. It's sad not because they disagree with current policy, but because the mutinous manner in which they've raised the issue is unfortunate for them, and the American people.

 

It's not the end of the world, others will rise up with equal or more talent and take their places.

 

I would say that if you are talking to FSO's who are against the war in Iraq, you are simply talking to FSO's who are against the war in Iraq. That's not everyone's underlying viewpoint. The issue of corruption, duplicity, and outright lying to an occupying power masquerading as a liberator by the Iraqi's drive many people nuts.

 

Partisan politics plays a role. Many of the younger FSO's came on during Democratic tenures, with a divergent idealism, and now they feel disenfranchised to a point. Shouldn't matter, but it does. I left the military for the polar opposite reasons they will probably leave foreign service. "Com Si, Com Sa"

 

Most folks are able to stay focused on the task at hand, which they should be doing, and allow their superiors to drive the ship. Let's not forget that the majority of American people voted the current administration in, not once, but twice. The good news is that foreign policy is like a big ship, you can only swing the rudder over 2-3 degrees at a time, either port or starboard, and this carrier were on right now isn't going to shift much. Like it or not, we're in Baghdad for a long time to come.

 

Those that can't serve in the engine room, because they THINK they should be manning the helm are going to find themselves looking for new work soon. They have that luxury, and that right, and I'm in NO WAY saying I agree or disagree with their personal politics, only that when there is a job to do. Sometimes you have to just shut your mouth and get it done. Things will work themselves out eventually.

 

What I know about those places, and these issues is because I'm there. You and I might be in the same neighborhood, if so feel free to drop me a line. The British tend to enter foreign service specifically to get to places where they can do things like climb in the Hindu Kush, same with a lot of UN folks.

 

a soldier's job is to follow his commander at all costs.

a human's job is to follow his soul's dictates at all costs.

one require months to master.

the other, lifetimes.

there is little surprise that most chose the first.

once chosen, the path leads you to its goals.

the responsability is always yours.

you can practice the concept with the first, yet,

we all get to the second eventually.

[Serenity]

I'm actually not even sure what it is you are trying to say there V7, and after reading some of your posts I'm not convinced you are either. You need to seek immediate detoxification for your drug or alcohol problem. I'd be happy to attempt to debate with you at that time should you successfully get through the process. Until then you are on "Ignore" feature.

 

I have to admit I forgot about FSO James Mollen who was killed in November of 2004, and DS agent Ed Seitz who was killed in October 2004.

[joblo7]

I'm actually not even sure what it is you are trying to say there V7, and after reading some of your posts I'm not convinced you are either. You need to seek immediate detoxification for your drug or alcohol problem. I'd be happy to attempt to debate with you at that time should you successfully get through the process. Until then you are on "Ignore" feature.

 

I have to admit I forgot about FSO James Mollen who was killed in November of 2004, and DS agent Ed Seitz who was killed in October 2004.

 

like i says, it takes time........

[joblo7]

ps.... dont drink , dont do dope. just naturally high. height is a good thang.

[Crux]

I'm actually not even sure what it is you are trying to say there V7, and after reading some of your posts I'm not convinced you are either. You need to seek immediate detoxification for your drug or alcohol problem. I'd be happy to attempt to debate with you at that time should you successfully get through the process. Until then you are on "Ignore" feature.

 

I have to admit I forgot about FSO James Mollen who was killed in November of 2004, and DS agent Ed Seitz who was killed in October 2004.

 

like i says, it takes time........

The denial phase of the grieving process is often like that.

[joblo7]

thank you for your support.