PDX Rocky Butte climber question

[danielloveland]

IF YOU ARE REALLY BAD *SS YOU CAN "FREE" THE POISON OAK WITH YOUR BARE HANDS USING NO GEAR, LEAVING NO TRACE. YOU COULD ALSO AID IT AND USE YOU SOME KILLER SPRAY TO FREE TO POISON OAK. IT'S YOUR CHOICE.

 

[billcoe]

bill i can appreciate your pride in keeping RB safe, but spraying the cliff tops and bottoms to keep down the poison oak seems a little excessive. i'm in no way a fan of the oak but i am also not a fan of having to stick my hands, legs, face in chemical poison while passing through.

 

You may be spending too much time wallowing in poison oak. I see you did not answer the question I really need answered, can I assume you do not approve of putting in bolts on top of Crackwarrior as well? Are you familiar with that route?

 

I agree with your sediment about not wanting to see spray anywhere. I don't like doing it and it scares me to use that crap at all, but now it's been sprayed and I hope it all friggan dies. But I doubt it.

 

Sooooo - if it comes back, especially in areas like top of White Rabbit and Crackwarrior: where it's right in your way and you MUST get right in it or just stop climbing, pack it in and go home and watch television and avoid the area all together, I'm asking you now Clif, will you pull it out so that it is removed without spray?

 

Cause I'm wayyyyyy down with that, but no one has been doing it. I'm not joking or playing here. Opdycke pulls that stuff out with his bare hands all day long when he sees it at Beacon, but if I even hear the words "Poison Oak", it jumps on me and ruins my life.

 

So since we don't want the spray, Opdycke doesn't climb here and I cannot get near it, I am asking you if you will do this.

 

Here is your task list as I see it:

 

Pulling the Poison Oak where it may (hopefully doesn't) come up, or which exists in these spots:

 

* There is heavy, heavy poison Oak on top of Wisdom Tooth (the chains 20' to the West of Birds of Paradise), and Oak and thorny weeds are growing out of that fine crack. This had not been touched with spray on top or on the route. Start here.

 

*Finish pulling the Poison Oak on the Crackwarrior path.

 

*Top of video bluff where you sling the trees for anchors.

 

*Top of White Rabbit where you sling the trees for anchors.

 

*Top of Espresso where you sling the chain, I see folks sitting in that oak patch while they clip the chain.

 

*Top of Blueberry where you set up the anchor, the Oak is growing all over up there.

 

*Top of Silver Bullet.

 

* There is heavy poison Oak growing out of that crack on Toothpick Buttress area about 25' left(East) of "On the Edge", and Oak and thorny weeds are growing out of the crack. This route has not been done, ever, due to the poison oak in the crack. The brush on top is very heavy and needs to be cut back as well.

 

*Cut and remove or pull and remove the blackberry bushes back at the top of the tunnel descent entrance.

 

*Cut and remove or pull and remove the blackberry bushes back at the top of the cliff breakfast cracks so that they do not force a mistep and a fatal fall off the path which is right on the cliff edge.

 

As an aside, I'd stay off the grass at the Bible college cause they didn't get that perfect weed-free look without chemicals, and also do not walk on the side of the road up there as it appears ODOT or the county road crews spray maybe twice a year, and they do it real real heavy, with chemicals that you cannot buy off the shelf because they are so dangerous and must be licensed to use. Much stronger and more dangerous than the roundup I had.

 

Please let us know the times you will be out there along with a basic plan and maybe some of us others can put in some time with you here or there to get this done.

__________________________________________________________

 

There is no Poison Oak at the base of the cliff to worry over.

***************************************************************

 

 

Meantime, if folks can stick to the real main question, and while you are out there, if you see someone you do not know, especially the non-computer climbers: ask their opinion on the Crackwarrior bolt issue and lets get this out in the public domain as much as possible. Please report back with your findings, esp. any negative ones. I think that a quick view of the top - if anyone has not seen it in a few years - will convince the most diehard traditionalist of the need, but still, it needs to be asked and discussed first. I agree with Markd, but will note that the top of this crack is far enough off the visible beaten track that most people do not even know where it is or that it exists outside of the guidebook.

[letsroll]

Billcoe thanks for your work spraying!!!! While only one person here thinks it unwarrented, they are in .0000000001% of people who use that place. Personally spray everything. Poison Oak sucks and I shudder to think what would happen if I got it on my rope (or at least how long it would take me to figure out that it was on my rope). As for the bolts go for it. It is a friggen rock quary. I will say it again it is a ROCK QUARY. For those who chop, you suck and if I come across those persons welcome to a world of hurt. It is not like it is a natural rock butress or you are grid bolting or bolting cracks where trad gear can be placed.

[dan_forester]

yeah, Bill, I appreciate it too.

[ivan]

hell no! we here at the FOTPI (Friends Of The Poison Ivy) are daily burning effigies of your insensitive ass now!!!!

[clif]

yo bill i have recieved the work order for hand removal of the oak in question, but it doesn't seem the good fight. Even you doubt the effectiveness of such action, as i'm sure you realize that birds eat the berries and spread them everywhere. I do find it interesting though that you would ask the community about throwing in a couple anchor bolts and neglect to ask anyone if spraying roundup is wanted or needed. A quick search of google came up with several sites stating the hazards to mammals and fish. some problems with the product are skin irritaion and skin rashes, on top of it taking 140 days for half the chemical to degrade from the soil. so anyone complaining of irritants caused from there rope, it could be oak it could be round up. Sorry off the soap box. something more along taste of this site. Whaaaaa I get a rash when i go the cliffs whaaaaaa!!

[billcoe]

yo bill i have recieved the work order for hand removal of the oak in question, but it doesn't seem the good fight. Even you doubt the effectiveness of such action, as i'm sure you realize that birds eat the berries and spread them everywhere. I do find it interesting though that you would ask the community about throwing in a couple anchor bolts and neglect to ask anyone if spraying roundup is wanted or needed. A quick search of google came up with several sites stating the hazards to mammals and fish. some problems with the product are skin irritaion and skin rashes, on top of it taking 140 days for half the chemical to degrade from the soil. so anyone complaining of irritants caused from there rope, it could be oak it could be round up. Sorry off the soap box. something more along taste of this site. Whaaaaa I get a rash when i go the cliffs whaaaaaa!!

 

I didn't know you were in the Teamsters or Longshoremans Union!

 

I also do not know why you would find it interesting that I would not ask about spraying but would about bolting. I appreciate your viewpoint about not spraying. I thought I addressed all this but let me try again maybe a different way.

-Bolting-

Anyone who thinks that they have the right to just walk up and put in a bolt, into a place where they have never been AND ARE NOT NEEDED, in a publicly owned area that has been climbed without them there for many, many years with gear anchors pretty much is saying they don't give a flying f*K what everyone else thinks. They're going to do it just because They want it done. Which is not only pretty damn selfish, but is pretty much giving every other climber, who may feel differently, the same (or better depending whom you ask) justification for yanking them out. You can peruse this site for some real strong opposing viewpoints on bolts and their use to get a feel for it. This argument/discussion is always on many of the threads on this site so you won't have to look far. I am soliciting opinions to see if the consensus is that they are NOW needed at this specific location. I believe that they are: see my first post.

 

-Vs-

-Spraying-

 

See Letsrolls post above if you wish to find that realization and that answer about spraying. The .00001 part he mentions. I did not forsee anybody not wanting it sprayed. It's that simple. Read that paragraph again if you still don't know why I sprayed there. Maybe it was selfish of me to have not discussed this beforehand, but I didn't see it as an issue at all. Sorry.

 

Again, the county sprays the roadside up there twice a year with some heavy duty weed killer stuff you have to be licensed to touch, and they do not ask your view on this nor even tell you about it. The city will spray poison oak in public areas where they trip over it as well. They are that unconcerned about the fears that the products which they use are unsafe. They are of the viewpoint that it is safe if done correctly (ie, when dry is not hazardous to humans at all unless you eat it before it washes off), and poison oak elimination becomes easy and fast. If they are that unconcerned - I suspect you could see my point about hitting some isolated patches of Poison Oak. Nobody wallows in the Oak...? Right?

 

So if I am understanding your post correctly, you will not do ANY? gardening esp handpulling noxious weeds, AND you don't want anyone spraying? You say I said I don't believe handpulling works, I did not say that, I am asking you to do it. Again, I see Jim do it, but I cannot touch the stuff and again Jim doesn't climb here - leaving you to pull it out.

 

I am asking you to do this: thats all. Please re-read my posts.

 

I really do not get why you still bring this up in light of what I said in my earlier post? You got some personal problem with me I should know about? We've know each other a long time, and you know I give people the straight up.

 

As far as anyone complaining of irritants, unless you are running through poison oak, you shouldn't have an issue. But, it is expensive, and I don't like doing it, and I've only done it once, so no worries about me spraying going forward.

 

But I take it you aren't gonna go out there and do not plan on doing anything out there or DO A GODDAMN THING BUT BITCH AT ME ?! That is what your post is saying. That you won't do anything about it. I find that upsetting and it pisses the fu*ck out of me too.

 

Course, I could be wrong about that. Maybe I'm reading into your post. I will keep an eye on the top of Wisdom Tooth since there is no spray there, has been none that I've ever noticed by anyone ever, and lots of Oak, to see if you do anything. Wisdom Tooth is the chains 20-30' towards downtown from Birds of Paradise. I suspect a quick google will instruct you to pull it out anytime of the year. I would suggest you go right now and do this, as the Oak is changing colors and very easily seen. Leave the frikan chains alone and just pull the oak OK? Nobody even knows the chains are there but me and I just "outted" them. When you finish we'll have a go at it together eh? Primo route. Or it will be when you pull the oak AND the prickly thorny plants growing out of the crack.

 

Show us all you put your money where your mouth is and that you truly and really care about the spray not being sprayed. Show us it's more than just sitting at your computer and complaining about someone trying to do something positive. I'm not kidding. Show us that you are walking the walking that you talk. Ask for help if you need it but why just pee on the community and lay a big downer down on everyone but offer nothing positive in return? It's that kind of attitude which leads to the problems at the Butte IMO. (IMO= In My Opinion)

 

Otherwise everything you say has NO meaning to me, no point. ZERO, NADA ZILCH. Hot air.

 

BTW, you might not have noticed this, but ya still didn't answer the main question. I'm thinking you do have a problem with the bolts. If you havene't been on Crackwarrior for a while (like me) go check it out. I can meet you up there to show you where it is.

 

Also please tell me your real name.

[danielloveland]

Bill, what drill are you currently using? Just wondering. I have been using my hand drill but this takes some serious time. I have been a little busy with the kiddos and work so I have not been out climbing, but I plan to do some route clean up soon. Have a good one.

[moira armen]

Bill--I live near Rocky Butte on 72nd and I would climb there more, except you often have to build toprope anchors by slinging trees, and those trees are frequently ensconced in poison oak, and I am SEVERELY allergic to poison oak. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for your work in keeping the poison oak down. Without you I doubt I could climb at the Butte. Please keep spraying until Clif gets around to hand harvesting all the oak. Also, thank you for bolting/offering to bolt anchors.

 

I am not sure where Crackwarrior is, and I've probably never climbed it, so I'm not sure I'm really qualified to weigh in on this specific bolting question. As a general rule, I'm in favor of bolted anchors on all of the climbs at Rocky Butte. Too bad someone keeps ruining the party.

 

To the bolt-chopper, if you are reading this, here are two good reasons you should stop: 1. It seems like bolts would be not only better for climbing but also better for the trees. 2. If there were bolted anchors, more people might climb there and then the climbs would be cleaner, garbage would get picked up, etc.

 

I understand concerns RE: people leaning waaay out off the cliff to set up topropes, but like Bill said, if it's too dangerous or outside the climbers' comfort zone, they can always set up a safety off a tree before setting up the TR.

[billcoe]

Bill--I live near Rocky Butte on 72nd and I would climb there more, except you often have to build toprope anchors by slinging trees, and those trees are frequently ensconced in poison oak, and I am SEVERELY allergic to poison oak. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for your work in keeping the poison oak down. Without you I doubt I could climb at the Butte. Please keep spraying until Clif gets around to hand harvesting all the oak. Also, thank you for bolting/offering to bolt anchors.

 

Welcome Moira, no worries, once Clif gets the top of Wisdom Tooth cleaned up, all will be good. I don't like the oak either, as long as he keeps at it, all that should be cleaned out. If not, someone else can go spray it next year. When I sprayed earlier, although it had been a while since I'd been up at the butte, I noticed that someone had removed, to the ground, as if they had pulled it out by hand (except that the ground did not look disturbed): all the poison oak by the anchor tree to get to the bolts on top of Smears for Fears Thank you to whomever did that. I know that Oak use to be there cause I was always dancing around it.

 

As a general rule, I'm in favor of bolted anchors on all of the climbs at Rocky Butte. Too bad someone keeps ruining the party.

 

To the bolt-chopper, if you are reading this, here are two good reasons you should stop: 1. It seems like bolts would be not only better for climbing but also better for the trees. 2. If there were bolted anchors, more people might climb there and then the climbs would be cleaner, garbage would get picked up, etc.

 

Not me, I totally disagree. I'm not in favor of bolting any old routes that do not have bolts unless something materially changes or everyone agrees in advance. But thats me. The climbs that do not have bolts on the west end have existed the longest out there, are the cleanest, have the least amount of garbage, are the very best lines, are easy to put pro in both to lead and toprope, and have easily been climbed over 40 years without anyone ever even suggesting that they needed bolts. . Furthermore, any trees which have died or blown over out there are not even close to the tops of these routes. People who just show up and stuff bolts in there knowing its a contentious thing are lame.

 

I wish there was a better way to bring everyone to the table though as just wandering around like Jews in the wilderness for 40 years just talking to random strangers on this issue. It seems so inefficient. Then you have people like Clif, who seem like candidates for saying they don't like the idea but despite bringing it directly to him like 2 or 3 times, still avoided answering. At least he was clear (surprisingly to me) on the spray issue.

 

I don't want the city involved as they may ban bolts, maybe climbing, altogether as that has happened elsewhere. And it is ultimately their choice to allow or not. I'd rather we handle it and reach agreement.

 

I'm not opposed to bolts, I owned up to putting in some convenience bolts on Tiger Paws and Dream Weaver (which were chopped.) I admit it was a lame thing to do. I had some chopped at Beacon too which many trad old timers since, have come to me and asked I put back in. I won't do it though.

 

I put the ones in on Glenns Route (with Glenn and John Frieh who owns an amazing drill:-) and along the top of Bill's Buttress on the new routes without sweating it, but those were new routes and except for someone removing 1 chain which was replaced and then slathered with epoxy, have been left alone. "Glenns Route" in particular, it's nice to have bolts there to facilitate ground up leading. Glenns Route is the easy face route to the right of Superman.

 

Furthermore, I think someone should replace, or add new stainless bolts as backup, to the old rusty mank on Flakey old man and the top of Silver Bullet. Like immediately. I back that crap up, but beginners or people who have just left the climbing gym seem to think if there is a bolt, it will never fail and they just trust that if its in there now it will miraculously always be there for them 100 percent perfect without fail.

 

Sadly not true.

______________________________________________________________

 

Daniel, to answer your question, I have 2 hand drills which suck, and a Hitachi 18V that I just bought to replace my old Milwaukiee 14.4 hammer drill which looks like this.

 

 

 

You can get some of the current hammer drills, like this Hitachi for example, with several battery options, GET THE LITHIUM ION. Not only is it more environmentally friendly, but it will run and last longer and cost a lot less in the long run. I've used a Hilti TE-6, (see the Glenns route comment above, John has one) and that MF will drill holes like a hot knife through butter, but carrying it anywhere is a bitch and it costs a lot too. I'd rather just have a 2nd battery fully charged. Joseph has been using one to do all that work on Beacon, and considering how close to the car it is, plus how many bolts he needed to drill (damn near all of the ratty and rusty old bolts on Beacon were either replaced or had an additional new bolt placed near by Joseph himself carrying that heavy MF TE-6). Price shop the battery before you buy the drill. Even sitting in your basement they can die, and the $ is pretty steep to replace one.

 

Anyhow, Ujahn drilled some holes 2 weeks ago with it, he's a contractor and drills holes for a living with corded tools, and despite the fact that he was hanging on a shitty stance barely hanging on, (difficult to drill) he thought it was pretty sweet and expressed happy thoughts on how easy it tore into the rock. It's not nearly as good as a Hilti, but the weight and price are the tradeoffs I was looking at.

 

It's a lot of work to move something that heavy around on a wall. This Hitachi should work good for me as I don't drill many holes.

 

We should be up there after work tonight, you should show up.

[moira armen]

I respect wanting to honor the original ethic. Of course it's totally feasable to toprope everything off trees, etc. and if I were rad I'd be leading that shit, but the truth is I'm just a whiny little bee-atch who wants to get off work and climb as much as possible before it gets dark!

 

It was nice bumping into you today...hope to run into you again someday!

[moira armen]

I understand/respect wanting to honor the original ethic. Of course it's totally feasable to toprope everything off trees, etc. and if I were rad I'd be leading that shit, but the truth is I'm just a whiny little bee-atch who wants to get off work and climb as much as possible before it gets dark!

 

It was nice meeting you today, and thanks for telling me you had replied to my post because I would have never checked...hope to bump into you again someday!

[billcoe]

Moira, it was great hanging with you and Preston. (Although I think Pretson might have been over the time limit for hanging dogging ) I did not however, bring my watch, so he got over this time.

 

Always nice to see a graceful climber such as yourself flow up the rock.

 

Thanks again see you out there!

[hemp22]

hey guys - just wanted to give a heads up to Rocky Butte climbers that an Adopt-a-Crag cleanup is scheduled for Saturday, October 6th.

There wasn't one this spring, so there should be no shortage of trash to clean up.

access fund website

 

Locals should show up and "give a little back" by helping keep it clean.

It would also probably make a good time to get a bunch of viewpoints/opinions on things like the crack warrrior anchor (or the poison oak).

 

unfortunately, i'll be out of town for a while, so I won't be able to attend or remind people about it - but hopefully people will mark their calendars.

 

 

[billcoe]

unfortunately, i'll be out of town for a while, so I won't be able to attend or remind people about it - but hopefully people will mark their calendars.

 

 

Cough* me too *cough* cough*

 

haha

 

Thanks for the heads up Jeff.

[ptownclimber]

Um, yeah. Bill, thanks for the patient belay. And yes, she did make it look graceful, didn't she?

[billcoe]

Yup, wish I could look like that.

 

Hey, way to go fer it on LB Preston!

____________________________________________________________________

 

 

To all: I hope you all have been asking folks out there about this issue. I have been less than happy with my efforts. [whining] It just seems difficult to get to people to interview them on their opinions. They're all down below climbing. Only a small percentage post here.[/whining]

 

Anyway, if all of you can please keep asking everyone you bump into out there, and maybe we can hook up with a bunch of the regulars at the dash for trash Oct 6th as well, and do the deed at some point afterwards if we don't have resistance. I think I did the trash pick up 2 years ago or so and only knew maybe 2 or 3 people there, the rest seemed to be strangers who said that they climbed out there. Lot of older folks. They nabbed a huge amount of trash and lost so tires that year too.

 

Nobody I've talked to has out and out opposed it yet, I've had some long discussions and explanations (and some short ones as well----->"Crackwarriuuusthat?"), but haven't been out there a lot either. Most people don't know where it is and have not heard of it. It's tucked back and way out of sight, you have to sketch out along the cliff edge to get to the top of it.

 

Although it's hard to argue with those few people who have pointed out that adding bolts to the top of a route that hasn't ever had bolts violates the FA ethic, and makes it so that that new climbers do not have any incentive to see and learn how to set an anchor (if they can just clip bolts). However, I have not met that person exposing that viewpoint yet who actually knows this route. Once you let them know the full situation, they soften on it.

 

 

Some of you have brought this up to me that we should start plotting the bolting strategy and we should discuss that some more before bolts actually get stuck in, cause as it's been noted by several folks, there's that other route right there to the East thats just getting a pile of moss on it from no use that could use the bolts too. (The former huge tree use to be the shared anchor for both routes and the crack was a backup, but the tree's now gone gone gone. )

 

I bought a bunch of Petzl Collinox on ebay dirt cheap, like 25 of the things. 10mil glue in bolts, and they'd be perfect on top of that little pinnacle that juts out in between the 2 routes. You could conceivably use a single length runner to drape it over each way to hit either route, and also if you led either you could just plop your ass down and clip. Perfect. I haven't actually measured it, I want the poison oak to finish dieing or Clif to pull it out first before I get out on that limb. Maybe we want to put in removable bolts first, and if things are not well received.....well, it's not a mess. I have some Steel Rawls 5 pc somewhere I don't want to be permenant anywhere and don't really have a use for them. If they survive, like the bolts on Glens route, we can take them out and put in the stainless glue ins later. The bolts 2 routes over next door to Crackwarrior, for instance, have never appeared to be been disturbed or replaced. Still steel, still rusty. The route next to that one - someone added a single stainless bolt maybe 8 years ago there and it's pretty much invisible from the top unless you get on that route, and then you see it (good placement but hard to get too unless you're leading), don't think thats been disturbed but don't know for sure. Looks the same to me.

 

Things to think over.

 

 

Someone should toss in a back up big-assed STAINLESS STEEL bolt by flaky old man and the rusty chains on top of silver bullet. Maybe I'd just better do that with the wonder drill instead of just keep mentioning it. Those things are rusty. Bad rusty. Rusty rusty with real rust. Probably be fine for 10 more years- but who can predict.

 

PS, whomever is doing all the gardening/weed whacking by Silver Bullet: thanks! Was out bouldering on top with Tim H tonight, and we had checked and saw that ALL OF THE OAK by Espresso is now dead, that bunch has been there for years and years. No more. A small piece may remain by White Rabbit, but maybe not. The English Ivy right there by espresso could be trimmed back if someone wants to step up and clip it back.

 

CLIFFFFFFF?

 

 

Drill update: very disappointing that I can only get between 2-3 3/8 x 5" holes drilled on a full battery. I might have to give up and get a real drill.

[ivan]

currently i'm in favoring of destroying all plant life on earth if only to eliminate the poison oak - what a throughly fucking evil plant...

[Chris_Moorehead]

I went down to Rocky Butte for the first time this past weekend and was very disappointed. The place is a pig sty. Broken glass, condoms, general trash and graffiti everywhere (bunch of white power stuff, real classy).

 

I was going with two beginners and was planning on using easy street. I brought a few diagrams/maps with me but I could not find it. It seems to have been completely overgrown with black berries (to my best guess). So I tried setting up a in a few other spots, then rappelling down only to find the routes too difficult for beginners and no suitable ways back up to the top. I ended up just teaching them rappelling and setting up basic anchors on the 80' face near the gopher hole to get back up.

 

It seems like such a shame, having what should be a great climbing location right there in the city. I don't plan on ever going back there.

[kevbone]

I went down to Rocky Butte for the first time this past weekend and was very disappointed. The place is a pig sty. Broken glass, condoms, general trash and graffiti everywhere (bunch of white power stuff, real classy).

 

I was going with two beginners and was planning on using easy street. I brought a few diagrams/maps with me but I could not find it. It seems to have been completely overgrown with black berries (to my best guess). So I tried setting up a in a few other spots, then rappelling down only to find the routes too difficult for beginners and no suitable ways back up to the top. I ended up just teaching them rappelling and setting up basic anchors on the 80' face near the gopher hole to get back up.

 

It seems like such a shame, having what should be a great climbing location right there in the city. I don't plan on ever going back there.

 

Bill, would you like to comment on this?

[JosephH]

Bill is in Red Rocks for a bit.

 

Chris, did you pick any of it up while you were there? It's the only way the place will ever stay clean is if folks do haul something out each time they go.

[Chris_Moorehead]

Sorry I didn't bring my biohazard gloves for picking up condoms & broken glass.

[iciclespyder]

I agree with Chris, Rocky Butte is a pig sty and that makes it fucked place to climb. I rather go someplace else then pickup used condoms. Luckly, Portland has other options.

 

[Chris_Moorehead]

Actually as disgusting as the used condoms are, it was really the glass that concerns me. Climbing rope and glass just don't seem to go well together.

[JosephH]

Well, climbers keeping it clean is the only way to keep up with. The routes there are good and worthy lines. The human environs and detritus are lamentable - but the stone is fairly righteous. You can either look past the bad for the good or not. There are other places to climb as you note.