tag line

[goldenchild]

don't know if I should put this on this board or on the newbie board.

How do you use a tag line for rappeling. Do you tie it to your climbing rope. If so how?

TIA

[olyclimber]

http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/alpine/colin-haley-alpinism-rope-systems

[goldenchild]

thanks porter,

I did a climb with a fella and could have sworn he used a tagline system where it was attached to a carabiner and pulled down or something like that. Guess I was wrong.

[catbirdseat]

Colin doesn't explain how taglines are used. Under this system you pass the heavy single rope through the anchor and join it to the tag line. You tie a figure eight loop on the single rope between the anchor and tag line. Clip the loop to the single rope on the opposite side of the anchor using a locking carabiner. The carabiner is used to protect against the knot pulling through the anchor sling.

 

You rappel the single rope strand. One might even put the tag line in a bag or a pocket so that it pays out as one rappels, since the wind can catch such small diameter line if thrown.

 

When it is time to pull the ropes, you pull on the skinny tag line. The carabiner should slide down the rope as you pull.

 

Naturally, you want the first person down to give a pull on the tag line to confirm that the ropes are going to move. That way the second can solve any problems before descending.

 

If you were using stout rappel rings or quick links and were satisfied that the knot joining the ropes could not possibly pull through the ring, you could dispense with the carabiner.

Edited August 8, 2007 by catbirdseat

[Highlander]

Tie the ropes together with a knot that won't pass through the rap ring or carabiner, whatever you are rapping off of. Rap on the lead line, pull the tag line rope after rapping. Works quite well, just make sure the know will not pass through or get stuck somehow in the rap anchor.

[olyclimber]

Colin doesn't explain how taglines are used.

Actually, he does. Just without the biner.

[John Frieh]

When using a tag line I rap both lines... when I set up the rap I set it up so that I am pulling the lead line (not the tag line) so that if the rope some how gets stuck when pulling the rap and I am forced to cut what I did manage to pull down/remains I am cutting the lead line... I set it up this was as I personally rather continue down with a piece of lead line not tag line.

[catbirdseat]

Colin doesn't explain how taglines are used.

Actually, he does. Just without the biner.

Unless you were willing to leave a biner or rap ring, you'd want to use the biner trick. Considering how hard those skinny tag lines are on the hands, it would be nice to have the rope through a ring for ease of pulling.

[goldenchild]

great! That was it, thanks

[TrogdortheBurninator]

I kinda thought the idea of the biner trick was so that you could have a retardedly skinny tag line (ie not one you would consider rapping on), whereas using something like techcord like colin does you would generally rap both strands and use the knot to ensure that the smaller diameter cord does not rappel too fast and slip. I have never used a super skinny tag line in any manner, so this is just my understanding.

[Marko]

When using a tag line I rap both lines... when I set up the rap I set it up so that I am pulling the lead line (not the tag line) so that if the rope some how gets stuck when pulling the rap and I am forced to cut what I did manage to pull down/remains I am cutting the lead line... I set it up this was as I personally rather continue down with a piece of lead line not tag line.

 

So how do you keep the skinny line from feeding through the rap device faster than the fat line and then subsequently start sawing through the rappel sling?

[spotly]

Are you rapping through webbing only? Is that a pretty common practice? I did that once a few years ago and it was a bitch getting the rope to pull. I take several rap rings now.

[selkirk]

Rapping through webbing means less gear to carry, less to leave. In my mind rap rings are usually reserved for standard rappel spots where there is already quite a bit of tat and people are continually adding more.

 

[John Frieh]

When using a tag line I rap both lines... when I set up the rap I set it up so that I am pulling the lead line (not the tag line) so that if the rope some how gets stuck when pulling the rap and I am forced to cut what I did manage to pull down/remains I am cutting the lead line... I set it up this was as I personally rather continue down with a piece of lead line not tag line.

 

So how do you keep the skinny line from feeding through the rap device faster than the fat line and then subsequently start sawing through the rappel sling?

 

My tag line is ~5 meters longer than my lead line to account for stretch of the lead/fat line... this extra also allows for some movement of the knot on the sling... whoever raps second always repositions the knot back against the rap sling prior to rapping though as some slippage does occur... I have never seen so much slippage or at a rate that cuts/melts the rap sling. What I do to minimize the amount of movement is I put an extra biner on just the skinny line side (total of 2) for rapping... the extra surface area seems to give enough friction so that the skinny line moves at about the same rate as the fat line... it helps that I don't climb on anything larger than 9.4 in the alpine also.

 

I can take a pic if that would help.

[sweatinoutliquor]

Personally I think rapping through webbing is lame unless it's an emergency. If you are going to leave something behind, why not make it something that others can use too? Pulling your rope through the webbing can damage it (the webbing) and then the next group through will potentially have to replace it, or worse, maybe they will rap off it too and either get hurt, or damage the webbing more. Just my $0.02, sorry it doesn't have much to do with the topic.

[spotly]

I guess if you have to leave something behind, might as well leave it in a usable condition. Assuming like selkirk says, standard rap route, that makes the most sense to me too. On a rarely used rap route - still not a bad idea. Rap rings are cheap and light. The idea of carrying a dozen or more isn't very appealing though. So, like everything else, depends on the situation.

 

My biggest concern would be the rope not wanting to pull through the webbing. I've only done that once and it was a real issue. But sounds like it's not usually so?!

 

Good thread - very useful info.

[Dannible]

My biggest concern would be the rope not wanting to pull through the webbing. I've only done that once and it was a real issue. But sounds like it's not usually so?!

 

Sounds like your rope was dragging over an edge or around a corner. Most of the time pulling it through webbing only isn't much harder than pulling it through a biner. If you are worried about a sling that others have been using without a rap ring you can back it up with another sling or piece of pro (unweighted) for the first person, then if it looks ok the second person can pull the extra gear/sling and rap on just the old one. I'll admit that I never bring rap rings.

[Marko]

When using a tag line I rap both lines... when I set up the rap I set it up so that I am pulling the lead line (not the tag line) so that if the rope some how gets stuck when pulling the rap and I am forced to cut what I did manage to pull down/remains I am cutting the lead line... I set it up this was as I personally rather continue down with a piece of lead line not tag line.

 

So how do you keep the skinny line from feeding through the rap device faster than the fat line and then subsequently start sawing through the rappel sling?

 

My tag line is ~5 meters longer than my lead line to account for stretch of the lead/fat line... this extra also allows for some movement of the knot on the sling... whoever raps second always repositions the knot back against the rap sling prior to rapping though as some slippage does occur... I have never seen so much slippage or at a rate that cuts/melts the rap sling. What I do to minimize the amount of movement is I put an extra biner on just the skinny line side (total of 2) for rapping... the extra surface area seems to give enough friction so that the skinny line moves at about the same rate as the fat line... it helps that I don't climb on anything larger than 9.4 in the alpine also.

 

I can take a pic if that would help.

 

I'd be worried about the skinny line getting cut over an edge while you're rapping. On the other hand, if the tag line gets cut while you're yanking around on it to pull the ropes... yer in fer some fun.

 

I'm guessing, also, that you're using Techcord which stretches a much less and is more cut resistant than my ratty 6mm Perlon. The 6mm stretches and slides a whole lot more than even the 9mm Stratos or the 8.5mm Sharp I usually use.

 

I use the additional carabiner trick when rapping of the doubled 6mm alone but hadn't thought of rigging the 'biner just on the 6mm for double rope rappels. Good idea.

[goldenchild]

John,

A photo would be great!

When using a tag line I rap both lines... when I set up the rap I set it up so that I am pulling the lead line (not the tag line) so that if the rope some how gets stuck when pulling the rap and I am forced to cut what I did manage to pull down/remains I am cutting the lead line... I set it up this was as I personally rather continue down with a piece of lead line not tag line.

 

So how do you keep the skinny line from feeding through the rap device faster than the fat line and then subsequently start sawing through the rappel sling?

 

My tag line is ~5 meters longer than my lead line to account for stretch of the lead/fat line... this extra also allows for some movement of the knot on the sling... whoever raps second always repositions the knot back against the rap sling prior to rapping though as some slippage does occur... I have never seen so much slippage or at a rate that cuts/melts the rap sling. What I do to minimize the amount of movement is I put an extra biner on just the skinny line side (total of 2) for rapping... the extra surface area seems to give enough friction so that the skinny line moves at about the same rate as the fat line... it helps that I don't climb on anything larger than 9.4 in the alpine also.

 

I can take a pic if that would help.

[Highlander]

The ways I use the tag line system is by depending on your lead line as your life line and the tag line is simply used as a retrival system. You want to have your rap set up so that if for some reason your tag line is cut, your lead line is going to act like a fixed line, because the knot will not pass through the rap anchor. If you have it set up the other way where you are going to pull the lead line after rapping, and the tag line is cut will rapping, your taking the ride. Another plus with having the knot set up for pulling the tag line after rapping is you can ascend the lead line as if it is fixed if you miss the rap station, or need to ascend the rope to get it unstuck. To use the system this way with a 6mm or 7mm cord, use a rap ring or biner to block the knot. If you want to use your tag line for simple double rope raps then use a 8mm rope, then use it through the webbing. I would avoid tech cord for many reasons.

[Pro Mountain Sports]

Colin's method seems so simple and elegant. Maybe we should try it out sometime. I'll provide the tech cord.

[dmuja]

Ive used this a few times for joining a 60 meter 9mm climbing rope, to a 200 foot 7mm tag line.

 

 

The knot is prolly overkill I know. The rap ring ("jam ring") is on a twist on the 9mil side. Id rather sacrifice (or get hit with) a rap ring than a biner any day. It prevents the joining knot from jamming in the main rap ring. I rap on both lines. The system works well enough but for a couple possible issues.

 

(A) Two 200 foot plus thin (9 and 7 mil) lines blow around alot when tossed, ie they will likely tangle somewhere. Solution is to holster them (nicely "butterflied") with a sling on each side of your harness and pay out rope as you descend. OR, nicely stack them together inside a pack and pay out as you descend. Always use a friction hitch backup with such thin lines.

 

(B) When using a "jam" thingy (I use a rap ring on a twist as opposed to a biner) and such a substantial joining knot you are asking for the rope to get hung up somewhere OR asking for it to pull something loose (aka rocks) to drop onto you or others. This is always a possible issue though specially when joining 2 ropes - unless your rapping all overhang.

 

Here is an alternative (BELOW) that I have yet to use because bluntly, I still don't trust the EDK for joining 2 ropes period (even the way its rigged in the second photo). Thats just me, but I mess with knots all the time trying get get them to fail etc and I just don't like the way the EDK loads - ie it trys to pull itself apart.

 

 

Whatever you use be 100 percent certain in your own mind that its bomber because rapping (as fun as it seems) is sorta like free soloing with a single knot as your only hold.