Mountaineers.org

[selkirk]

Most of my knowledge is from the 70s so some things may be better. That doesn't take away from the fact that the Mounties have some issues they really need to work through.

 

Granted. And the folks in the club know it and are continually working on it. It's just a slow process and takes the right people in place and the right leverage. Things are definitely going in a good direction though

 

Serious props to the folks driving the changes, you know who you are :tup:

[selkirk]

Many people feel it's inherently unsafe or just inappropriate to head into wild places with a bunch of people you don't really know each time, in a large group, often where only a couple in that group really know what's going on. If those leaders are solid, things can be smooth. If they are not-so-solid, things can get ugly.

[\quote]

This is a worst case scenario and it's rarely that bad. Most of the folks I know end up climbing within the same small group of Mountaineers so that a higher number of folks are a known quantity. especially on anything challenging.

 

These organizations can provide a regimented learning environment that works well for a lot of people. Others prefer to have a mentor of some kind introduce them to the hard lessons of mountaineering in a one-on-one situation. Many people don't have the luxury of someone patient enough to do this, however. But many experienced climbers learn to realize how rewarding it can be to help guide someone on their first outings, even if they are not challenged by the route itself. It can be quite an accomplishment to safely navigate a complete novice through tricky terrain and have that person feel safe at all times.

[\quote]

As I posted, things appear to migrating from the big group model to more a Small group/mentor model for teaching purposes.

 

There are plenty of folks from the Mountaineers on here who can chime in about the internals of the organization. This is simply a perspective from someone outside, who has met them "in the field". I have met some great, highly-competent individuals from the club, and some who I never want to be near again in the mountains.

 

Sorry for the pontification!

 

I could say the same about climber in general regardless of their affiliation. I've seen people who do stuff that scares me to death who have nothing to do with the Mountaineers.

 

That said, there are lot of folks in the Moutaineers who are moderate climbers and just really like to get out in the hills and enjoy teaching, which I have a great deal of respect for.

 

[XXX]

People give the mounties alot of crap@#$ however most of the mounties I have met are well versed in the basics of climbing. Some of my best partners have been from the mounties.

 

I would rather take someone who went through the mounties any day over some sport climber who just pulled plastic at stone gardens and learned through a "mentor".

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I am not a troll, and not sure why that would even have to be said, I don't believe they compete in anyway with this forum do they? i have already decided to not join this group, however alot of people seem to go this way, it is only recently that I have combined the Internet and my climbing, I have for years done it the old fashioned way with friends and family. but as I get a little older (44) many of them have lost intrest, so here I am.

 

your age / demographic are very similar to a typical climber in the mountaineers.

[knotzen]

The Mountaineers climbing program centers on teaching. Most people who climb with the Mounties take the courses, then teach and lead climbs to support the courses. Those who don't teach and lead after graduating typically don't continue to climb with the club, i.e., on official club climbs.

 

However, graduates of the courses, whether they continue to help run the program/classes or not, often meet people to climb with--fellow students, climb leaders, mentors. "Unofficial Mountaineers climbs"--climbs in which all the participants are members but the climb isn't registered as a club climb, and so it's actually a private climb--are common.

 

But my sense, being a member since the early 90s, when I joined to take the Basic Climbing Course and work on the fire lookouts, is that very few climbers stay active *in* the club if they choose not to, or tire from, teaching and leading. There's been a couple of generations of climbers and leaders since I took the course, and the only ones that I know of that go on club climbs are the few who still teach and lead climbs to support the courses.

 

It's also hard to get equivalency status (permission to participate in club climbs without going through the courses)--another reason that non-course-related climbing is not a big activity in the club.

 

The club has been looking at keeping and building membership the last few years--maybe they should consider this.

 

[RuMR]

Many people feel it's inherently unsafe or just inappropriate to head into wild places with a bunch of people you don't really know each time, in a large group, often where only a couple in that group really know what's going on. If those leaders are solid, things can be smooth. If they are not-so-solid, things can get ugly.

[\quote]

This is a worst case scenario and it's rarely that bad. Most of the folks I know end up climbing within the same small group of Mountaineers so that a higher number of folks are a known quantity. especially on anything challenging.

 

These organizations can provide a regimented learning environment that works well for a lot of people. Others prefer to have a mentor of some kind introduce them to the hard lessons of mountaineering in a one-on-one situation. Many people don't have the luxury of someone patient enough to do this, however. But many experienced climbers learn to realize how rewarding it can be to help guide someone on their first outings, even if they are not challenged by the route itself. It can be quite an accomplishment to safely navigate a complete novice through tricky terrain and have that person feel safe at all times.

[\quote]

As I posted, things appear to migrating from the big group model to more a Small group/mentor model for teaching purposes.

 

There are plenty of folks from the Mountaineers on here who can chime in about the internals of the organization. This is simply a perspective from someone outside, who has met them "in the field". I have met some great, highly-competent individuals from the club, and some who I never want to be near again in the mountains.

 

Sorry for the pontification!

 

I could say the same about climber in general regardless of their affiliation. I've seen people who do stuff that scares me to death who have nothing to do with the Mountaineers.

 

That said, there are lot of folks in the Moutaineers who are moderate climbers and just really like to get out in the hills and enjoy teaching, which I have a great deal of respect for.

except its mountie doctrine to fuck everything up...

[RuMR]

People give the mounties alot of crap@#$ however most of the mounties I have met are well versed in the basics of climbing. Some of my best partners have been from the mounties.

 

I would rather take someone who went through the mounties any day over some sport climber who just pulled plastic at stone gardens and learned through a "mentor".

have fun on da' toof...

 

ahhh...dreamin' of slug infested 5.6c/d mosspiles!

[RuMR]

The Mountaineers climbing program centers on teaching. Most people who climb with the Mounties take the courses, then teach and lead climbs to support the courses. Those who don't teach and lead after graduating typically don't continue to climb with the club, i.e., on official club climbs.

 

However, graduates of the courses, whether they continue to help run the program/classes or not, often meet people to climb with--fellow students, climb leaders, mentors. "Unofficial Mountaineers climbs"--climbs in which all the participants are members but the climb isn't registered as a club climb, and so it's actually a private climb--are common.

 

But my sense, being a member since the early 90s, when I joined to take the Basic Climbing Course and work on the fire lookouts, is that very few climbers stay active *in* the club if they choose not to, or tire from, teaching and leading. There's been a couple of generations of climbers and leaders since I took the course, and the only ones that I know of that go on club climbs are the few who still teach and lead climbs to support the courses.

 

It's also hard to get equivalency status (permission to participate in club climbs without going through the courses)--another reason that non-course-related climbing is not a big activity in the club.

The club has been looking at keeping and building membership the last few years--maybe they should consider this.

what a fuckin' joke...so, you can't test out, but if take some stupid crash course that's even called "BASIC" you're qualified to teach??? WTF?? I wonder how many mounties'll get the smack this year...

[rob]

I'm glad we're finally having this discussion. The years of silence on this topic have taken their toll!

 

Now if only we had the courage to discuss bolting as well.

[ericb]

RUMR...have you ever looked at the itinerary for the Basic course???....hardly what I'd call a "crash" course.

[RuMR]

no...but i've seen some of the folks that its turned loose...and even still, they have what? maybe a season of climbing tops? And most of that is under supervision (by another basic grad )...

 

what's your point? So someone looks at the itinerary, gets a lecture on a saturday on one topic, then goes on a mountie-sponsored climb, then is an expert? sounds like the armchair warriors on this site...

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I'm glad we're finally having this discussion. The years of silence on this topic have taken their toll!

 

Now if only we had the courage to discuss bolting as well.

 

[ericb]

RUMR....I've had my fair share of negative experience with certain mountie groups in the past...I'm not an advocate of the organization. I've climbed with a guy that was an intermediate mountie, and it was slow going. He needed several belays going up the 3rd/4th class Sahale summit scramble, and took a fall (as the second) on the 5.4 move at the base of SEWS south arete...probably becuase he insisted on climbing in his boots. I've also got some attitude from two different Mountie groups that left a bad taste in my mouth.

 

That said, I think there are some "pro's" to the training as well. It's very possible to find a partner on this sight that's a strong 5.10+ lead rock climber that wouldn't be nearly as prepared in the alpine (should things go awry) as a graduate of the basic class. If they've passed the class, my understanding is that they would have these basic fundamental skills that many self-taught climbers may not.

 

1) crevasse rescue (setting z-pulley, c-pulley, etc.)

2) MOFA

3) Basic high angle rescue (escaping the belay, lowereing, etc.)

4) Basic avvy skills

 

99 days out of 100, I'd prefer a ropegun to haul my scared ass up some tough routes, but if something goes wrong I hope I'm with someone that has invested in learning the non-sexy fundamental skills to get my ass back home alive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[selkirk]

The Mountaineers climbing program centers on teaching. Most people who climb with the Mounties take the courses, then teach and lead climbs to support the courses. Those who don't teach and lead after graduating typically don't continue to climb with the club, i.e., on official club climbs.

 

However, graduates of the courses, whether they continue to help run the program/classes or not, often meet people to climb with--fellow students, climb leaders, mentors. "Unofficial Mountaineers climbs"--climbs in which all the participants are members but the climb isn't registered as a club climb, and so it's actually a private climb--are common.

 

But my sense, being a member since the early 90s, when I joined to take the Basic Climbing Course and work on the fire lookouts, is that very few climbers stay active *in* the club if they choose not to, or tire from, teaching and leading. There's been a couple of generations of climbers and leaders since I took the course, and the only ones that I know of that go on club climbs are the few who still teach and lead climbs to support the courses.

 

It's also hard to get equivalency status (permission to participate in club climbs without going through the courses)--another reason that non-course-related climbing is not a big activity in the club.

The club has been looking at keeping and building membership the last few years--maybe they should consider this.

what a fuckin' joke...so, you can't test out, but if take some stupid crash course that's even called "BASIC" you're qualified to teach??? WTF?? I wonder how many mounties'll get the smack this year...

 

 

Very eloquent thoughtful comments RUMR I wish I could expect more, this isn't Spray afterall, but you seemed intent on taking it there.

 

Yes you can test out, though in the past it's been difficult as you needed to test out of everything (back country travel, rock, crevasse rescue etc.) My understanding is that this will be changing significantly in the next year or so and you should be able to test out of just about any given skill set.

 

Crash course? That's why to graduate it takes a minimum of 9 months, and at least a dozen days in the backcountry, though most people get out more. Hell, I'd rather climb with the 3/4 of the basics I've met this year than you

 

And no one says basics are expert's, who ever thought that? Certainly no one familiar with the course. Basic grads know enough to be trusted not to put the rest of the party in danger, and that's it. It's an introduction, it was never meant to produce a complete well rounded independant climber. And no one ever graduates having only been exposed to 1st year intermediates. On the field trips this year that I've helped out the majority of instructors are people with at least 2 or 3 full seasons under the belt, and quite a few folks like myself who find it rewarding, and few more who have been climbing since you were in diapers.

 

Overall, I'd much rather climb with a basic grad than someone who climbs 5.11 in the gym, and has taken 2 days of outerdoor rock instruction through VW or a guide. Someone who's taken instruction for say a dozen days over the course of several months from a guide might be a different story but I wonder what that would cost?????

 

And your right Knotzen, there don't end up being many official non-course related climbs. If no one needs credit the everyone just goes out and climbs without making it official.

 

[selkirk]

RUMR....I've had my fair share of negative experience with certain mountie groups in the past...I'm not an advocate of the organization. I've climbed with a guy that was an intermediate mountie, and it was slow going. He needed several belays going up the 3rd/4th class Sahale summit scramble, and took a fall (as the second) on the 5.4 move at the base of SEWS south arete...probably becuase he insisted on climbing in his boots. I've also got some attitude from two different Mountie groups that left a bad taste in my mouth.

 

That said, I think there are some "pro's" to the training as well. It's very possible to find a partner on this sight that's a strong 5.10+ lead rock climber that wouldn't be nearly as prepared in the alpine (should things go awry) as a graduate of the basic class. If they've passed the class, my understanding is that they would have these basic fundamental skills that many self-taught climbers may not.

 

1) crevasse rescue (setting z-pulley, c-pulley, etc.)

2) MOFA

3) Basic high angle rescue (escaping the belay, lowereing, etc.)

4) Basic avvy skills

 

99 days out of 100, I'd prefer a ropegun to haul my scared ass up some tough routes, but if something goes wrong I hope I'm with someone that has invested in learning the non-sexy fundamental skills to get my ass back home alive.

 

Thanks Eric and that's a brief overview of what's taught, though I might also add in navigation, and self arrest.

[Cobra_Commander]

Someone who's taken instruction for say a dozen days over the course of several months from a guide might be a different story but I wonder what that would cost?????

 

Some of the trepidation about these groups is the role of "the guide". To be a certified guide for rock or alpine instruction takes time and dedication. It is a significant accomplishment to have certification, and a significant resume is needed to enter the courses just to prep for the amga exams. In Europe, it's a trade program requiring essentially a college degree. These professional roles are being replaced by someone who has been through the Mountaineers basic program. Now it may well be that there's no problem with that, but it is something to think about before you launch into the Pickets with someone you might not know that well. There are often just a few bad apples creating a reputation, but it sure is lame to be with one of those apples! Of course, I'm sure the organization can make sure the right people are leading the right trips to some degree.

 

You get guaranteed competence and experience if you pay for a certified guide for instruction or a climb. Some people are willing to pay for that.

[AlpineK]

All I know is first year intermediates should not be instructing basic students. I've instructed with that much experience, and I find it disconcerting that I did this and dangerous too.

 

Look at any private pay for instruction company and you'll find that the instructors have more than 1 season of basic class and a few lectures from intermediate instructors.

 

I'm sure there are instructors with a lot of experience, but they're few and far between.

[selkirk]

Someone who's taken instruction for say a dozen days over the course of several months from a guide might be a different story but I wonder what that would cost?????

 

Some of the trepidation about these groups is the role of "the guide". To be a certified guide for rock or alpine instruction takes time and dedication. It is a significant accomplishment to have certification, and a significant resume is needed to enter the courses just to prep for the amga exams. In Europe, it's a trade program requiring essentially a college degree. These professional roles are being replaced by someone who has been through the Mountaineers basic program. Now it may well be that there's no problem with that, but it is something to think about before you launch into the Pickets with someone you might not know that well. There are often just a few bad apples creating a reputation, but it sure is lame to be with one of those apples! Of course, I'm sure the organization can make sure the right people are leading the right trips to some degree.

 

You get guaranteed competence and experience if you pay for a certified guide for instruction or a climb. Some people are willing to pay for that.

 

Your absolutely right. Climb leaders aren't held up to the same standard as guides. The climb leader isn't a guide but a mentor. They're someone with more experience and time in the hills who's willing to share it at absolutely no benefit to themselves other than the enjoyment of good company and the fulfillment of helping teach new climbers. Oh, and the occasional pre-field trip donut and cup of coffee. And to those who chose to hire a guide to teach them, more power to them.

 

I know when I learned, I don't think I could have afforded to hire a guide for a week. Much less the 20 some days I probably spent learning and climbing with a mentor that summer.

 

And I also wouldn't head into the Pickets with a group of people I don't know well (or up Outerspace, or the NR of Stuart, etc.), which is why you don't see many formal mountie climbs there, and the ones that are formal are almost entire full of people who know each well already. Going up the Sulphide Glacier on Shuksan, or the S. Arete on SEWS is a different story.

[ericb]

Someone who's taken instruction for say a dozen days over the course of several months from a guide might be a different story but I wonder what that would cost?????

 

Some of the trepidation about these groups is the role of "the guide". To be a certified guide for rock or alpine instruction takes time and dedication. It is a significant accomplishment to have certification, and a significant resume is needed to enter the courses just to prep for the amga exams. In Europe, it's a trade program requiring essentially a college degree. These professional roles are being replaced by someone who has been through the Mountaineers basic program. Now it may well be that there's no problem with that, but it is something to think about before you launch into the Pickets with someone you might not know that well. There are often just a few bad apples creating a reputation, but it sure is lame to be with one of those apples! Of course, I'm sure the organization can make sure the right people are leading the right trips to some degree.

 

You get guaranteed competence and experience if you pay for a certified guide for instruction or a climb. Some people are willing to pay for that.

 

CC - if I was going to head to the [remote] pickets with someone I didn't know that well, I'd be at least, if not more interested in whether my partner could haul my broken ass out of a crevasse and patch me up, than whether they were solid at 5.7.

[selkirk]

All I know is first year intermediates should not be instructing basic students. I've instructed with that much experience, and I find it disconcerting that I did this and dangerous too.

 

Look at any private pay for instruction company and you'll find that the instructors have more than 1 season of basic class and a few lectures from intermediate instructors.

 

I'm sure there are instructors with a lot of experience, but they're few and far between.

 

I'll take a headcount at the next field trip, but I'd bet the ratio of 1st year intermediates to more advanced climbers is at least 1 to 1, and likely closer to 1 to 2. No student get's through having only been instructed and observed by only first year intermediates. With the proposed changes, climb leaders would be doing all the final checks to make sure students know their stuff. (Fastest person to climb leader from basic that I know of 5 years, and she's damn good )

[markwebster]

In 1976 I was a lonely young man, just out of school in Tacoma wondering how to meet friends, in particular female friends. Someone suggested the hardies and I signed up for their hiking class. I met several babes, and married the one with the best legs...and other attributes.

 

Three years later we were both in the intermediate class teaching the basic students stuff we'd learned the year before. In retrospect, I wasn't ready to teach, but the organization said I was. As a climb leader, I made some mistakes, but no one got hurt.

 

We soon dropped out of the club as we had met a circle of 10 friends who had integrity, but no desire to continue jumping through hoops for the club.

 

After a 24 year absence I rejoined the hardies this spring in hopes of meeting some partners who had more skills than the average gym rat. I've had mixed results.

 

In the Tacoma club, there are some very experienced hardies, truly nice people with a ton of alpine experience(willis wall). We've been on some climbs together and it feels good knowing they can build an anchor safely, know how to belay without a grigri, and have at least a vague idea of rescue techniques. My only problem with them is they are always in the mountains, where I just want to climb cliffs.

 

I think I've actually had better results meeting partners on this board. It does really help when people are honest about their abilities, and fitness levels.

 

Oh, did I mention, she was quite a babe? She and I, and our two grown kids will be in the valley this fall.

 

http://www.websterart.com/html/climbing.php

 

the mountaineers have their problems, but, unless you are lucky enough to find a mentor, for the money, no one teaches beginners better...

 

 

[RuMR]

The Mountaineers climbing program centers on teaching. Most people who climb with the Mounties take the courses, then teach and lead climbs to support the courses. Those who don't teach and lead after graduating typically don't continue to climb with the club, i.e., on official club climbs.

 

However, graduates of the courses, whether they continue to help run the program/classes or not, often meet people to climb with--fellow students, climb leaders, mentors. "Unofficial Mountaineers climbs"--climbs in which all the participants are members but the climb isn't registered as a club climb, and so it's actually a private climb--are common.

 

But my sense, being a member since the early 90s, when I joined to take the Basic Climbing Course and work on the fire lookouts, is that very few climbers stay active *in* the club if they choose not to, or tire from, teaching and leading. There's been a couple of generations of climbers and leaders since I took the course, and the only ones that I know of that go on club climbs are the few who still teach and lead climbs to support the courses.

 

It's also hard to get equivalency status (permission to participate in club climbs without going through the courses)--another reason that non-course-related climbing is not a big activity in the club.

The club has been looking at keeping and building membership the last few years--maybe they should consider this.

what a fuckin' joke...so, you can't test out, but if take some stupid crash course that's even called "BASIC" you're qualified to teach??? WTF?? I wonder how many mounties'll get the smack this year...

 

 

Very eloquent thoughtful comments RUMR I wish I could expect more, this isn't Spray afterall, but you seemed intent on taking it there.

 

Yes you can test out, though in the past it's been difficult as you needed to test out of everything (back country travel, rock, crevasse rescue etc.) My understanding is that this will be changing significantly in the next year or so and you should be able to test out of just about any given skill set.

 

Crash course? That's why to graduate it takes a minimum of 9 months, and at least a dozen days in the backcountry, though most people get out more. Hell, I'd rather climb with the 3/4 of the basics I've met this year than you

 

And no one says basics are expert's, who ever thought that? Certainly no one familiar with the course. Basic grads know enough to be trusted not to put the rest of the party in danger, and that's it. It's an introduction, it was never meant to produce a complete well rounded independant climber. And no one ever graduates having only been exposed to 1st year intermediates. On the field trips this year that I've helped out the majority of instructors are people with at least 2 or 3 full seasons under the belt, and quite a few folks like myself who find it rewarding, and few more who have been climbing since you were in diapers.

 

Overall, I'd much rather climb with a basic grad than someone who climbs 5.11 in the gym, and has taken 2 days of outerdoor rock instruction through VW or a guide. Someone who's taken instruction for say a dozen days over the course of several months from a guide might be a different story but I wonder what that would cost?????

 

And your right Knotzen, there don't end up being many official non-course related climbs. If no one needs credit the everyone just goes out and climbs without making it official.

listen, the guy asked about something that could potentially affect his life and i'm offering my views (very strong on this) that the mountie "situation" could potentially get you into big trouble or KILLED...go ahead, spew your doctrine my way...i'm waiting...

 

9 months and a dozen days...hmmmm, worldclass expert qualified to teach...granted, there are fast learners out there, but in general that is not enough time/experience to be instructing (even under someone with some real skills) others in a lifethreatening environment...look at SCUBA or any other organization that teaches something beyond basketweaving...

 

i don't think anyone has advocated picking up a gym climber as a guide...the difference is the "trip leaders" are somewhat endorsed by the mountieabountie.orgyfest as being competent to lead a group...well, i've seen enuff o' em, that i beg to differ...

Edited August 6, 2007 by RuMR

[RuMR]

Someone who's taken instruction for say a dozen days over the course of several months from a guide might be a different story but I wonder what that would cost?????

 

Some of the trepidation about these groups is the role of "the guide". To be a certified guide for rock or alpine instruction takes time and dedication. It is a significant accomplishment to have certification, and a significant resume is needed to enter the courses just to prep for the amga exams. In Europe, it's a trade program requiring essentially a college degree. These professional roles are being replaced by someone who has been through the Mountaineers basic program. Now it may well be that there's no problem with that, but it is something to think about before you launch into the Pickets with someone you might not know that well. There are often just a few bad apples creating a reputation, but it sure is lame to be with one of those apples! Of course, I'm sure the organization can make sure the right people are leading the right trips to some degree.

 

You get guaranteed competence and experience if you pay for a certified guide for instruction or a climb. Some people are willing to pay for that.

[RuMR]

All I know is first year intermediates should not be instructing basic students. I've instructed with that much experience, and I find it disconcerting that I did this and dangerous too.

 

Look at any private pay for instruction company and you'll find that the instructors have more than 1 season of basic class and a few lectures from intermediate instructors.

 

I'm sure there are instructors with a lot of experience, but they're few and far between.

:tup:

[KaskadskyjKozak]

All I know is first year intermediates should not be instructing basic students.

 

Just how many years of experience and certifications are required to teach people to tie in to their harness, read a topo map, tie knots, and discuss gear, clothing, hydration and food for climbing? Sorry but one year is enough.

 

If you're talking about LEADING climbs that doesn't happen after one year.