jon Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 All this advice coming from the guy who continually ran himself into the ground to the point of uselessness. Classic. Milk is great stuff unless you're lactose intolerant. Regardless, lactose does digest or metabolize well under high exertion. Additionally, the Chocolate Milk "studies" that showed that it worked just as well as other supplements were ironically funded by the milk industry, and I know this because I talked extensively with the person doing the research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimbingPanther Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 (edited) you wouldn't expect the expensive-sports-drink industry to fund and release research results that showed their product was is equal to a cheaper alternative, now would you? if a company had a truly better product than milk, I'd expect them to fund a little research of their own and publish it to counter the milk study [maybe they have and I don't know about it???]. no industry-funded research ever gets released if it doesn't put their product in a good light. sports drink marketing is all about creating the perception of scientific formulation and superiority without any proof, kinda like penis enlargment or maybe I'm just cheap Edited July 27, 2007 by ClimbingPanther Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 $2 per serving... It's all about MILK. $2 per gallon? w00t! I drank a liter every day one summer I was biking every day. I was wicked strong. EXACTLY! Milk is one of the most PERFECT sport nutrition drinks. Especially if you get 1% fat chocolate milk - its got near perfect ratios of carbs to protein to fats. Certainly beats the shit out of powerade. Probably the most important thing I've learned about sports nutrition is that its all about ratios. You can't just go eat a shit ton of protein and expect to gain anything. You've got eat roughly four carb units per unit of protein. Care to explain how 20 grams of sugar per 8 ounce serving is the perfect sports drink? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 I love drinking milk out of my water bottles on a hot sweaty bike ride, it's just like getting it right out of the tit. I only drink the finest Cambodian breastmilk. Damn that some good breastmilk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYC007 Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 well where does whey protien derive from...milk..hmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_like_sun Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 $2 per serving... It's all about MILK. $2 per gallon? w00t! I drank a liter every day one summer I was biking every day. I was wicked strong. EXACTLY! Milk is one of the most PERFECT sport nutrition drinks. Especially if you get 1% fat chocolate milk - its got near perfect ratios of carbs to protein to fats. Certainly beats the shit out of powerade. Probably the most important thing I've learned about sports nutrition is that its all about ratios. You can't just go eat a shit ton of protein and expect to gain anything. You've got eat roughly four carb units per unit of protein. Care to explain how 20 grams of sugar per 8 ounce serving is the perfect sports drink? Dude, sugar is a very good thing when it comes to post workout nutrition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 citations please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Frieh give him a break he was captivated by the Burke R4 book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Frieh Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizard_brain Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 citations please It's on teh interweb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_like_sun Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 citations please Heres an abstract for you, jackass. Williams MB, Raven PB, Fogt DL, Ivy JL. (2003). Effects of recovery beverages on glycogen restoration and endurance exercise performance. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research. 17, 1, 12. The restorative capacities of a high carbohydrate-protein (CHO-PRO) beverage containing electrolytes and a traditional 6% carbohydrate-electrolyte sports beverage (SB) were assessed after glycogen-depleting exercise. Postexercise ingestion of the CHO-PRO beverage, in comparison with the SB, resulted in a 55% greater time to exhaustion during a subsequent exercise bout at 85% maximum oxygen consumption (VO(2)max). The greater recovery after the intake of the CHO-PRO beverage could be because of a greater rate of muscle glycogen storage. Therefore, a second study was designed to investigate the effects of after exercise CHO-PRO and SB supplements on muscle glycogen restoration. Eight endurance-trained cyclists (VO(2)max = 62.1 +/- 2.2 ml.kg(-1) body wt.min(-1)) performed 2 trials consisting of a 2-hour glycogen-depletion ride at 65-75% VO(2)max. Carbohydrate-protein (355 ml; approximately 0.8 g carbohydrate (CHO).kg(-1) body wt and approximately 0.2 g protein.kg(-1) body wt) or SB (355 ml; approximately 0.3 g CHO.kg(-1) body wt) was provided immediately and 2 hours after exercise. Trials were randomized and separated by 7-15 days. Ingestion of the CHO-PRO beverage resulted in a 17% greater plasma glucose response, a 92% greater insulin response, and a 128% greater storage of muscle glycogen (159 +/- 18 and 69 +/- 32 micromol.g(-1) dry weight for CHO-PRO and SB, respectively) compared with the SB (p < 0.05). These findings indicate that the rate of recovery is coupled with the rate of muscle glycogen replenishment and suggest that recovery supplements should be consumed to optimize muscle glycogen synthesis as well as fluid replacement. See, sugar is good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYC007 Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 can you highlight sugar, cuz complex carbs arent classified as sugars. Take revoverite drink for instance, maltodextrin is its source of carb then Whey as pro. But sorrry to say that refined sugars are in no way good for you.. Let me shed some brighter light for your vague description!: part 1: Complex carbohydrate (polysaccharides, such as maltodextrin) is your fuel of choice for glycogen replenishment. Simple sugars (mono- and disaccharides) taken immediately after exercise have the advantage of high glycemic index (GI), indicating rapid metabolism, but the disadvantage of being relatively calorie-poor per volume and therefore unlikely to provide adequate carbohydrate nutrition without inciting digestive issues. (Other articles in this guide discuss additional problems associated with simple sugars in endurance exercise.) On the other hand, complex carbs offer high GI, plus ease of digestion and high caloric impact. part 2: Simple Sugars and Complex Carbohydrates – An Incompatible Combination by Steve Born If you look on a container of a Hammer Nutrition fuel you'll find something that you'll probably not see on another energy drink or gel" a warning. For example, on a container of HEED you'll find these words: "Do not combine HEED with any product containing simple, refined sugars. Negative side effects may occur." Similarly, you'll find the following on a container of Perpetuem: "WARNING: Do not combine Perpetuem with any product containing simple, refined sugars." What's up with that? Why are we so adamant about not combining simple sugars with complex carbs? Well, the reason for that is simple: we want you to enjoy your workout or race, we want you to achieve your best possible results, and we want you to do that without having stomach issues such as bloating, cramping, diarrhea, and a host of others. However, when you consume a simple sugar fuel at or near the same time as any of the Hammer Nutrition fuels (which contain no added simple sugars) you very much put your workout and race, and your stomach, in jeopardy. Here's the deal: simple sugars (glucose, sucrose, fructose, dextrose, etc) need to be mixed in concentrations no higher than 6-8% in order to achieve an acceptable absortion osmolar value of body fluids (280-303 mOsm) and be digested with any efficiency. That's it. The problem is that a 6-8% solution is a pretty weak mix and will only yield about 100 or so calories an hour, which is inadequate for maintaining optimal energy production. Some athletes realize that and try to resolve the problem by making a double or triple strength batch of their simple sugar product. Unfortunately, that solution is now far too concentrated, it's much higher than 6-8% and, unless more water is consumed or added to the mix (at which point the athlete might very well be flirting with over hydration) that concentrated simple sugar solution will not pass the gastric channels. Energy production is compromised and stomach distress is sure to follow. The same problem occurs when an athlete combines a simple sugar fuel with a complex carbohydrate fuel. The beauty of complex carbs is that they will match body fluid osmolality, not at a 6-8% solution, but a more concentrated 15-18% solution. Even at this seemingly too-high concentration complex carbohydrates (such as maltodextrins/glucose polymers) will empty the stomach at the same efficient rate as normal body fluids and provide substantially more calories (up to three times more) than simple sugar mixtures will. However, when simple sugars and complex carbs are consumed together or near each other, it increases the solution concentration beyond what either source can be efficiently digested at. In other words, when you consume simple sugars and complex carbohydrates together or within close proximity of each other you negate the efficient digestibility of either source. Once again, energy production will be compromised and a variety of stomach issues are likely to occur. SUMMARY: If the athlete consumes a simple sugar fuel the body will only permit 6-8% of it in solution into circulating serum for fuel replacement. Complex carbohydrate fuels are easily and more-rapidly absorbed in a 15-18% solution. More calories are absorbed faster, and are available for energy production, from complex carbohydrates than simple sugar. The higher the simple sugar content, the higher the solution osmolality, the less of it is absorbed immediately. The longer the chain of sugars linked together as a complex carbohydrate the more of it is absorbed in higher solution because its osmolality is closer to that of body fluids. Therefore, the ideal carbohydrate source for athletes is long-chain complex carbohydrates, which is what all the Hammer Nutrition fuels are comprised of. BOTTOM LINE: You don't want nor need to consume ANY simple sugars with any of the Hammer fuels. The Hammer fuels will meet all your energy needs and you won't have to worry about any stomach issues that can occur when you consume simple sugars with them. enjoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 what about drinking shots of olive oil? aint no sugar in that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_like_sun Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 what about drinking shots of olive oil? aint no sugar in that. You are my kinda guy! One time back in high school when I was drunk and stupid I got dared to do just that.........it stung like hell! Oh, speaking of alcohol, I've read that the pre-digested starches in good beer are actually some of the best forms of carbohydrate for glycogen repleation. Anyone heard or read that too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYC007 Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 beer contains maltose, which is not a complex carb. so i dunno about that.. did PBR write that one. Plus the booze actually competes for the glycogen stores which in turn you can loose out on stored glyc. sorry man alcohol really has few benifits in this realm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 One time back in high school when I was drunk and stupid I got dared to do just that.........it stung like hell! I got news for you.... that wasn't olive oil you were drinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashw_justin Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 You can buy protein powder in bulk at Whole Paycheck, $6-$10/lb depending on how pretentious you want to get. The cheap soy one tastes good with some fruit juices, contributing a nearly tasteless smoothie texture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_like_sun Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 beer contains maltose, which is not a complex carb. so i dunno about that.. did PBR write that one. Plus the booze actually competes for the glycogen stores which in turn you can loose out on stored glyc. sorry man alcohol really has few benifits in this realm. I did know that alcohol completes for glycogen storage, but the source I read was talking about really low alcohol content beer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jclements Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 I think Freddy's has the basic soy powder for about $3-4/lb. I mix it in with Body Fortress whey, about $16 for a 2lb can. I use milk and or/soy milk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jclements Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 I may be wrong, but I understand maltose, being two glucoses linked together, is more evenly absorbed for purposes of strenuous exercise than simple® sugars such as fructose and glucose, and doesn't have as high glycemic response. Maltodextrin is basically a string of glucoses linked together in the same bonding pattern as maltose, (hence the malto-). Brown rice syrup is made from malted rice, is high in maltose, and is what makes up Clif shots. I use it to make my own cheaper shots, (mix w/ a little choc. syrup, put it in a squeeze tube) though it doesn't taste so good, but where I use it I'm not visiting for gourmet experiences. Following Twight's advice, I've found staying away from solid foods, proteins, and more than just a bit of fat , sticking to dilute energy drink like Cytomax and maltose/maltodextrin gel shots, works great during the day's exertion at high altitude for sustained energy, is easy on the stomach, though some queasiness is to be expected at altitude. A 16 yo mountain newbie I was with on Adams recently stopped to eat a roast beef sandwich or something, and along with the gatorade (fructose, basically), did a mojo on his stomach that turned him back just a couple hundred feet from the summit. I've seen this wall come up on folk several times, myself included, with those who eat only pop tarts, snacks and whatnot up in the mountains, and get taxed. The gel shots work, though I am wary of using too many that have caffeine (which seems to in a good number of them). On a few occasions I've given them to a fellow climber/skier when they were waning who hadn't used one before, and they reported a little pickup, though of course this is anecdotal. I think the advice about keeping the energy drink diluted is good as well; A bottle of Cytomax that had been mixed a little strong is what finally set my stomach off at the top of a CO 14er - descent wasn't pretty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_like_sun Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 I've put honey in those squeeze tubes with a pinch of ON whey protein. My ratios were probably far from perfect, but the taste was great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYC007 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 this is why I dont use clif shots.. funny this there is a difference between a polysaccharide and a disaccharide, more so when your body is digesting them. The osmolality controls how much you can digest per hr. Hey funny thing Twight uses hammer's stuff .. so maybe he likes better stuff now. He speaks on perpeteum on his site too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jclements Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 Thanks for the info update, always more to learn. In Kiss or Kill Twight cryptically mentions in a paragraph on nutrition that he thinks he could have shaved 12 hours off his Mount Hunter push, but he wouldn't elaborate. Perhaps this is the key... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackthenewb Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 I have tried the excelerade stuff but when you drink it it makes your mouth very dry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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