Ken Nichols convicted and fined for bolt chopping

[pope]

I'd say that having done a bunch of climbs with bolts on them I don't care how they were placed. On lead or on rappel it doesn't matter; as long as the bolts are in good spots for leading the route and they aren't right next to cracks.

 

I have seen a fair share of bolts next to cracks in Leavenworth. This whole conversation reminds me of one route right up from Carnival Crack that while a fun climb had a bolt pretty darn close to a crack.

 

If I'm not mistaken some of the anti bolt guys on this thread were involved.

 

This is old news. Most who have climbed it feel the route's single bolt is appropriately placed in a spot where reasonable protection is not available. Without it, you'd have to do the crux and face a big, swinging fall back into a shallow dihedral, or maybe hit a ledge. If bomber gear existed at the crux, there would have been no bolt. The crux is gymnastically much harder than the rest of the route, which means a climber could easily reach the crux and then find himself way over his head. The guidebook incorrectly credits a handful of people for this climb when it was mostly the vision and effort of Scotty Hopkins. The bolt hole was drilled on the lead, but our 3/8" Fixe bolt somehow didn't fit the hole. We then borrowed a rotohammer from Jim Phillips and put in a 1/2" bolt at the crux. Scotty, Jason Mikos and I thought it was about 5.9+, but it went in the book as 5.10b.

 

Feck and others have taunted that if I were a "real bad-ass", I wouldn't have placed a bolt. May I comment that:

(1) I'm not nor have I ever claimed to be a "real bad-ass".

(2) I could free solo the route if it would make you happy (but I probably won't because I'm a daddy).

(3) I'm not an anti-bolt Nazi. Bolts have a place in climbing.

...so let me get this straight...you placed that bolt to protect someone who might arrive at that crux unprepared? Isn't this akin to "protecting" the masses, only slightly ever so slightly less?

 

It sure would be nice if you were consistent (besides the consistently annoying via ferrata cum fratboy-tool photo that crops up incessently) in your logic...cuz right now, i'm having a hard time seeing how you aren't sinking in your quicksand logic...

 

Oh gee guys, you got me! Bullshit. I believe that after clipping the bolt, you make the crux move and then eventually reach into a crack where you can then get gear to protect the finish (or just run it out). Those suggesting "pope bolted a crack" aren't familiar with the route. I don't believe there is so much as a #2 R.P. available before making the crux move. But I'll go check it out just in case I'm wrong (that was years ago) and remove the bolt if appropriate. Remember that we're talking about one bolt on an otherwise completely natural route, a bolt where I believe no good (if any) gear is available, a bolt that protects the crux. Without the bolt, a climber would likely be seriously hurt at that point.

 

Is this a case of "your bolts stink, mine don't"? No it's not. We're not talking abouit grid bolting, excessive bolting, bolting next to cracks, rap bolting, or establishing a climb that is completely bold dependent. We're talking about one bolt. This is a route I easily could have done without the bolt or even without a rope. At the time I routinely free soloed 5.10 climbs and was leading 5.11+. Furthermore, while I participated in this route, the credit goes to Scotty Hopkins. I have no personal investment in the route or the bolt. I'd defend this bolt even if that prick Rudy drilled it!

[RuMR]

where's that sense of commitment?? those balls? why do you need the protection before the move?? YOU SANITIZED IT with a bolt...what's wrong with a dangerous route? Why does it have to be led? why why why? Especially if you could have soloed it????

[RuMR]

oh the shifting sands of logic...FUZZY LOGIC, that is...

[pope]

where's that sense of commitment?? those balls? why do you need the protection before the move?? YOU SANITIZED IT with a bolt...what's wrong with a dangerous route? Why does it have to be led? why why why? Especially if you could have soloed it????

 

Well, I believe a bolt was a good idea in that case. You're trying to promote this image of me as being "black and white" on the issue, opposed to every bolt. It ain't so. Bolts have a place, a proper place. That bolt on that route is in a proper place. And if you're not too old and fat, you should go do it. Then you'll agree, and you'll probably thank me not only for placing the bolt but for showing such great restraint and wisdom. And then I'll probably ask you to shut up and stick this in your mouth:

 

[kevbone]

Pope. Sounds like you are bitching about bolting when you have done it yourself. I have done the same although different! I put up climb that required bolts……13 clips in all except one section with one piece of gear.

 

I have taken shit for this from the sporto’s……and some hard trad guys as well, who state why do I have to take one piece of gear on a sport climb? My reply…..I just did not have the heart to bolt such obvious gear. If you don’t like it….go climb something else. Oh well. It goes both ways.

 

[RuMR]

where's that sense of commitment?? those balls? why do you need the protection before the move?? YOU SANITIZED IT with a bolt...what's wrong with a dangerous route? Why does it have to be led? why why why? Especially if you could have soloed it????

 

Well, I believe a bolt was a good idea in that case. You're trying to promote this image of me as being "black and white" on the issue, opposed to every bolt. It ain't so. Bolts have a place, a proper place. That bolt on that route is in a proper place. And if you're not too old and fat, you should go do it. Then you'll agree, and you'll probably thank me not only for placing the bolt but for showing such great restraint and wisdom. And then I'll probably ask you to shut up and stick this in your mouth:

no thanks, i just brushed my teeth and used another toothpick already (that looks like it might leave residue)...you should really go see someone about your "condition"...a shot of penicillan will do wonders...

 

Seriously, the problem in your logic is you do accept bolts in some cases and in others not...the crux becomes, who draws this line and where is it drawn???? No one location/authority/person can do this and satisfy everyone...

[RuMR]

I think the local "ethics" of the crag should dictate what happens there...

 

ie, I'm not too concerned about that shitpile known as ex38...

[richard_noggin]

YO POOP

You don’t like sport routes, I don’t have a problem with that, The majority of real climbers, the ones that climb it all, enjoy sport routes, what I have a problem with is the shoot yourself in the foot mentality of someone like you that just likes to stir the pot to stroke his ego, and has nothing better to do than spray endlessly on the internet stir’n up shit needlessly

Go climbing …get a life…STFU

 

[AlpineK]

There are plenty of climbs out there with little to no protection where amazing climbs were done without the use of virtually any bolts.

 

In the book Climb! there is a quote from David Breashears about the route Perilous Journey on Mickey Maus Wall.

 

It was the most emotional climb I've ever done--it was really deep-rooted in the style of climbing that I believe in. First of all, it was not a good climb to fall off of at the crux--you'd certainly hit the ground. You probably wouldn't die...but you might.....

 

I've stood right at the base of this in disbelief that anybody could climb this. I figure if somebody could do such a long route with next to no pro then it's no big deal to make one extra move to a spot with potential gear placements.

 

We were smart (and wimpy) enough to head up to a nice multipitch 5.9 with lots of good pro.

 

*** The route I'm referring to has a rating of 5.11 vs

Edited July 24, 2007 by Feck

[hawkeye69]

pope,

 

the problem with you is that you are claiming to have put in a bolt on a route for people other than yourself to make it safe. extrapolate that and you gots sport climbing.

 

too bad you cant see through your own shit to know that.

 

 

[RuMR]

[billcoe]

pope,

 

the problem with you is that you are claiming to have put in a bolt on a route for people other than yourself to make it safe. extrapolate that and you gots sport climbing.

 

too bad you cant see through your own shit to know that.

 

 

Have to agree 100%. It would be different if Pope was claiming it was a mistake, but he's defending it.

 

Cough *Elmer Gantry* cough Cough *Elmer Gantry* cough

 

 

since you don't appear to be any different than me Pope, it really makes me what the hell you've accentually been screaming about all along.

 

AHHHHGGGGHHHH SPORT CLIMBERS

 

Some how they do not seem so different from you now. A bit for sure. A bit. Not by much.

 

 

[kevbone]

Pope....I think you have been had! Might as well pack up!

[RuMR]

cue raindawg with a richard simmons circle jerk poster...

[billcoe]

But Pope, it only makes you nearly identical to the rest of us, and frankly, since you haven't posted in a bit, I rather like the lack of histrionics's.

[RuMR]

don't you mean hysterics?

[pope]

But Pope, it only makes you nearly identical to the rest of us, and frankly, since you haven't posted in a bit, I rather like the lack of histrionics's.

 

 

Sorry Bill. I've been on a northwall all day (I'm painting my dad's house). To all of you who think you've scored some kind of nifty little victory here, you're invited to answer these questions:

1. Did I ever state that bolts have no place in climbing?

2. Is the single bolt on the route in question inconsistent with views I've advocated since 1985?

3. How many of you putzes have climbed the route on lead? When you do, I think you'll give up on the notion that "pope bolted a crack".

[high_on_rock]

Pope, are you suggesting that one should climb the route before they bitch about it?

 

[pope]

There are plenty of climbs out there with little to no protection where amazing climbs were done without the use of virtually any bolts.

 

In the book Climb! there is a quote from David Breashears about the route Perilous Journey on Mickey Maus Wall.

 

It was the most emotional climb I've ever done--it was really deep-rooted in the style of climbing that I believe in. First of all, it was not a good climb to fall off of at the crux--you'd certainly hit the ground. You probably wouldn't die...but you might.....

 

I've stood right at the base of this in disbelief that anybody could climb this. I figure if somebody could do such a long route with next to no pro then it's no big deal to make one extra move to a spot with potential gear placements.

 

I agree. You wanna go chop it with me? I don't need that bolt. Every subsequent party will have to complete the crux or get pretty banged up. It's not just a matter of doing a little run-out to get through the crux. You're looking at a ledge fall or a large swing into a dihedral. The gear ain't there. As is, you have a completely natural route but for one bolt. But I really don't care either way, and I'd defend the bolt if I had nothing to do with the climb. Remember, I came out in favor of bolting that belay on Orbit.

[pope]

Pope, are you suggesting that one should climb the route before they bitch about it?

 

Unless it's an ugly bolt trail established on rappel, especially one in a wilderness area.

[XXX]

"pope" say:

 

Makes me wanna puke.

 

Makes me wanna holler!!!

 

 

 

Dang shes kinda cute, u take that? lol. Go get em pope!

[kevbone]

Pope, are you suggesting that one should climb the route before they bitch about it?

 

Wow......Pope.....that was a bitch slap if I ever saw one. Getting crushed at your own game.....wow!

[Raindawg]

 

Wow......Pope.....that was a bitch slap if I ever saw one. Getting crushed at your own game.....wow!

 

Hey Forrest Gump, Jr. You appently understand NOTHING!

Even I believe that bolts have a place, but they should be EXTREMELY RARE, not the substance of the means which is the way of sport-climbing. Sit down and think once in a while instead of riding on the coat-tails of someone else's weak attempt at derision. Did your comment above make you feel good?

 

"I'm runnin' to make fun o' "pope" cuz I doesn't grasps what he's be sayin!"

[RuMR]

hey, how did your dad's photo get in here?

[high_on_rock]

Man, who would have guessed that Donald would come to the rescue of Pope, as Pope was taking a long fall off his high horse.

 

I gotta tell you don, it blew me away to find out that you are actually an educated person. With all the hours you must spend looking up PeeWee Herman photos, now Forest Gump photos, I am astonished that your junior high school arguing techniques are actually the product of an educated person. It makes me wonder what kind of expectations you have for the students whom you teach. I know that when I was teaching high school I would have been disappointed to receive such trivial crap for an argument.

 

Come on Don, rise to a more enlightened level for your arguments. You must have the ability deep down in there somewhere. Make your arguments worth reading, and worthy of your abilities.

 

Eric