Trip Report Mt. Garfield - Infinite Bliss 7/8/2007

[Raindawg]

I don't think you need anybody's "permission". They have no more jurisdiction or ownership over the route on public land than you do. This "ask the first ascensionists for permission" is a load of crap...if it's a bad route, people might take action one way or another...adding to it or taking something away. And if others don't like it, they might change it back.....Lots of climbers like to think of themselves as a bunch of tough, free-thinking anarchist sorts...well this is how the game can be played.

 

I think we should ask IB enablers to correct their mistake by erasing the whole stinkin' fiasco.

[Raindawg]

Anyone know how to get in touch with the FA?

 

Thx

 

 

Why? Do you want to tell em off? Or shake his hand?

 

Good call 512. I was thinking this too, ask permission to toss in at least a single bolt, maybe 2, in the blank section so that a party descending in the rain doesn't die.

 

PM sent

 

I don't think you need anybody's "permission". They have no more jurisdiction or ownership over the route on public land than you do. This "ask the first ascensionists for permission" is a load of crap...if it's a bad route, people might take action one way or another...adding to it or taking something away. And if others don't like it, they might change it back.....Lots of climbers like to think of themselves as a bunch of tough, free-thinking anarchist sorts...well this is how the game can be played.

 

I think we should ask IB enablers to correct their mistake by erasing the whole stinkin' fiasco.

[kevbone]

I don't think you need anybody's "permission". They have no more jurisdiction or ownership over the route on public land than you do. This "ask the first ascensionists for permission" is a load of crap...if it's a bad route, people might take action one way or another...adding to it or taking something away. And if others don't like it, they might change it back.....Lots of climbers like to think of themselves as a bunch of tough, free-thinking anarchist sorts...well this is how the game can be played.

 

 

It’s called respect. I was taught you never touch someone else’s climb with out asking permission out of respect for who came before you. It is an unwritten code. I would say out of the all the climbers I talk too and know, 99% of them know and abide by this respect. It does not matter if the climb is 50 or 3000 feet, it would go a long way to make a valid attempt at contacting the “climbers who came before you”.

 

 

Once again Rain……respect those who came before you please.

 

[pink]

kevbone, do you think ib was over bolted?

[billcoe]

Once again Rain……respect those who came before you please.

 

Hooooo, what a quick rispote backhanded bitchslap from the bone.

 

Rain, so you are saying I can add bolts anywhere I want and if you don't like they maybe you will remove them and if I want them back I put them back and if you don't want them you will remove them and if I choose to put em back I do and thats fine cause you will remove them and I will put them back and you will remove them and if I want them back I put them back and if you don't want them you will remove them and if I choose to put em back I do and thats fine cause you will remove them and I will put them back and you will remove them and if I want them back I put them back and if you don't want them you will remove them and if I choose to put em back I do and thats fine cause you will remove them and I will put them back and you will remove them and .....

 

Seems like a poor way to communicate.

 

But excuse my poor manners, this was a TR, not an arguement about bolts.

[kevbone]

kevbone, do you think ib was over bolted?

 

Pink......I counted 4 (of the lot) that was (in my mind) unnecessary. On a 23 pitch climb…..to answer your question……NO.

 

Matter of fact (IMO), all that it needs is an anchor (in the spot in question) and about 2 to 3 lead bolts on the pitches with no bolts. The only thing you could complain about after that would be some loose rock……once these extra bolts and anchor goes in…..it would be the ultra classic it was meant to be.

 

[pink]

Once again Rain……respect those who came before you please.

 

Hooooo, what a quick rispote backhanded bitchslap from the bone.

 

Rain, so you are saying I can add bolts anywhere I want and if you don't like they maybe you will remove them and if I want them back I put them back and if you don't want them you will remove them and if I choose to put em back I do and thats fine cause you will remove them and I will put them back and you will remove them and if I want them back I put them back and if you don't want them you will remove them and if I choose to put em back I do and thats fine cause you will remove them and I will put them back and you will remove them and if I want them back I put them back and if you don't want them you will remove them and if I choose to put em back I do and thats fine cause you will remove them and I will put them back and you will remove them and .....

 

Seems like a poor way to communicate.

 

But excuse my poor manners, this was a TR, not an arguement about bolts.

 

[billcoe]

kevbone, do you think ib was over bolted?

 

Pink......I counted 4 (of the lot) that was (in my mind) unnecessary. On a 23 pitch climb…..to answer your question……NO.

 

Matter of fact (IMO), all that it needs is an anchor (in the spot in question) and about 2 to 3 lead bolts on the pitches with no bolts. The only thing you could complain about after that would be some loose rock……once these extra bolts and anchor goes in…..it would be the ultra classic it was meant to be.

 

 

Kevin, is there any chance you were off route?

 

Baring that, put them in.

 

To many have made the same comment, it was a massive project the first dudes were on, we can help out and finish up the last little detail for them with a hand drill and prevent a needless death next time it rains.

 

[kevbone]

We were WAY off route Bill……I led a 1000 lead with one crappy cam and a bush as pro……Ben kept going and we finally met up with the climb at the bottom of the upper head wall……on the way down we passed a team coming up that was complaining about no bolts. These guys were easily 75 feet out from there last crappy piece…..we all agreed this was nothing compared to the rap that Ben and I were in the middle of. The follower of the other team was passing me as I took myself off belay 2000 feet of the ground at the end of the 200 rap. I was not tied into the wall……I just kind of leaned in. No crack to make an anchor. Still 100 feet of down climbing on sandy/gravely/ loose rock to make the next bolted anchor…..yikes.

[octopuswithafez]

Methinks someone posted a TR about rapping in the rain that was quite hair-raising...

[kevbone]

Methinks someone posted a TR about rapping in the rain that was quite hair-raising...

 

Methinks that sounds scary.

[Raindawg]

 

Rain, so you are saying I can add bolts anywhere I want and if you don't like they maybe you will remove them and if I want them back I put them back and if you don't want them you will remove them and if I choose to put em back I do and thats fine cause you will remove them and I will put them back and you will remove them and if I want them back I put them back and if you don't want them you will remove them and if I choose to put em back I do and thats fine cause you will remove them and I will put them back and you will remove them and if I want them back I put them back and if you don't want them you will remove them and if I choose to put em back I do and thats fine cause you will remove them and I will put them back and you will remove them and .....

 

That's exactly what I'm saying.

No permission from the F.A.'s needed.

 

It’s called respect. I was taught you never touch someone else’s climb with out asking permission out of respect for who came before you. It is an unwritten code. I would say out of the all the climbers I talk too and know, 99% of them know and abide by this respect. It does not matter if the climb is 50 or 3000 feet, it would go a long way to make a valid attempt at contacting the “climbers who came before you”.

 

It's come to this because people put up jackass routes like Infinite Bliss and have little respect for the mountains.

[glm]

We rapped off a few small trees and bushes which resulted in very diagonal (skier's rightward) raps.

I bet that was some ski!

[kevbone]

It's come to this because people put up jackass routes like Infinite Bliss and have little respect for the mountains.

 

I believe this "unwritten rule" has been around longer than you have been climbing. You climb.....right?

[Raindawg]

 

I believe this "unwritten rule" has been around longer than you have been climbing.

 

Everyone has heard of this "rule", but:

a) it's not a law;

b) not everyone agrees with it, including myself;

c) there will always be exceptions...the FA's, for example, were not consulted when Dan's Dreadful Direct was retrobolted nor when it was subsequently chopped.

And no one's necessarily going to be consulted when IB or other routes of similar ilk get the chop.

 

You climb.....right?

 

Longer than you've been alive, junior.

Now go refill your sippy cup and watch a few Barney reruns.

 

[LUCKY]

I have a TOPO coming, It should solve most of the problems so IB can get on with being a NW Classic

Thanks to all the supportive people on this issue.

To the flock of screaming crows...well you know what country folk do when a flock of screaming crows are around the house

[kevbone]

 

Longer than you've been alive

 

 

Great....next time you are in Portland.....get ahold of me and we will go pull down.....I look forward to it.

 

kevin

[512dude]

Raindawg,

 

You are correct that this rule isn't law but what is law anyhow? A set of rules/guiding principles which we agree to abide by so that anarchy doesn't exist. It just happens we climbers are self governed and as a small community we do respect each others interests in climbing and the routes that get established. You do confirm that you have knowledge of the unwritten rule yourself but choose not to agree.

 

Why do you think it is a better option to do whatever you want with rock routes vs. discussing options with the first ascentionist? Perhaps you have some good reasons/intentions and it would help me/us to understand your reasoning.

 

Thx

c

 

 

 

I believe this "unwritten rule" has been around longer than you have been climbing.

 

Everyone has heard of this "rule", but:

a) it's not a law;

b) not everyone agrees with it, including myself;

c) there will always be exceptions...the FA's, for example, were not consulted when Dan's Dreadful Direct was retrobolted nor when it was subsequently chopped.

And no one's necessarily going to be consulted when IB or other routes of similar ilk get the chop.

 

You climb.....right?

 

Longer than you've been alive, junior.

Now go refill your sippy cup and watch a few Barney reruns.

[Jens]

In reality, the odds are slighlty in favor that this route may not ever get removed (or at least in it's entirity). I guess guys like me and many others that make a stink on this website so that when the new or aspiring climber does this route someday, they will have a bit of knowledge about the controversy of this route. As time goes on and generations pass, the negative history behind this route will never be completely forgotten- Long after web pages and cc.com archives disappear.

If you are a newbie wondering what all the fuss is about, realize that their is indeed food for thought.

peace out dudes. I'm done with IB spraying.

 

[Raindawg]

Great....next time you are in Portland.....get ahold of me and we will go pull down.....I look forward to it.

 

kevin

 

Dude...I'm going to have to wait a few years until you're done pulling up!

 

 

[Raindawg]

Why do you think it is a better option to do whatever you want with rock routes vs. discussing options with the first ascentionist? Perhaps you have some good reasons/intentions and it would help me/us to understand your reasoning.

 

This is becoming a major tangent covered in depth elsewhere, but here are some brief comments (believe me, I could go on and on) to answer your inquiry:

 

Raindawg,

 

You are correct that this rule isn't law but what is law anyhow? A set of rules/guiding principles which we agree to abide by so that anarchy doesn't exist. It just happens we climbers are self governed and as a small community we do respect each others interests in climbing and the routes that get established. You do confirm that you have knowledge of the unwritten rule yourself but choose not to agree.

 

I don't believe that climbers are any longer a "small" community nor necessarily even a "community". There once was a time when it was somewhat self-policing because everybody knew, or knew of, everybody else. In the present day where climbing is mass-marketed, it's a different universe. Untold thousands of people call themselves "climbers", whether they play in the confines of a gym or are alpine big-wall masters and everything in between. Some of us find sport-climbing, with its reliance on trails of permanent anchors, to be a warped permutation of climbing, if not utterly illegitimate, and unfortunately, it has become the status quo. The learning curve is very short and the easy gratification is satisfying. I think it would be a fair statement to say that most new climbers don't have a clue that there is controversy about placing bolts or other provocative environmental issues.

 

Some of us think a lot of the routes established today are shameful and bogus...including sport-bolting on traditional crags and in the mountains e.g. "Infinite Bliss". In such cases I think the only reason to talk to a "first ascensionist" doing these sorts of things is to ask him to desist or to clean up his mess.

 

Additionally...most climbing areas are on public land. They aren't owned by any "first ascensionist". The obligation is to be a good steward. If I see someone damaging our environment, I might choose to address the problem with or without the blessing of such "F.A."'s.

 

we do respect each others interests in climbing and the routes that get established.

 

Not necessarily so. See the above.

 

You do confirm that you have knowledge of the unwritten rule yourself but choose not to agree.

 

I choose not to agree to the extent that it interferes with my own sense of ethics.

 

I hope this clarifies some things or perhaps introduces you to another perspective.

 

 

Thx

c

 

you're wlcm

 

r

 

 

 

[chirp]

lol

[kevbone]

Great....next time you are in Portland.....get ahold of me and we will go pull down.....I look forward to it.

 

kevin

 

Dude...I'm going to have to wait a few years until you're done pulling up!

 

I take that as a no?

I

[kevbone]

 

including sport-bolting on traditional crags and in the mountains e.g. "Infinite Bliss”

 

 

 

This statement really shows your lack of understanding about this climb….”traditional crags”….is that what Mt. Garfield is? Well I have been on it and have a unique view of it. This climb would be a solo without the bolts. I believe it to the farthest thing from a “traditional crag”. Once again…….I do no believe your view point to hold any weight until you climb this climb……or the very least hike up to the base and check it out. I promise you will not even be able to see the bolts…….

[Raindawg]

Some interesting tangents have been inspired by this topic, for example, the "rights" of first-ascensionists regarding "their" routes, etc. They are interesting topics but probably deserve their own separate discussions apart from Kevbone's on-going celebration of his remarkable ascent of Infinite Bastard.

 

So, I'll offer a clarification of Kevbone's latest misunderstanding and perhaps we can move on or continue elsewhere.

 

Raindawg wrote:

Some of us think a lot of the routes established today are shameful and bogus...including sport-bolting on traditional crags and in the mountains e.g. "Infinite Bliss".

 

Kevbone responded:

This statement really shows your lack of understanding about this climb….”traditional crags”….is that what Mt. Garfield is? Well I have been on it and have a unique view of it. This climb would be a solo without the bolts. I believe it to the farthest thing from a “traditional crag”.

 

Raindawg responds:

 

Re-read what I wrote..."traditional crags and the mountains"; I'm not suggesting that Mt. Garfield is a traditional crag, it is a mountain.

Now read it again...get it? Perhaps you would have better understood it if I had written "traditional crags or the mountains."

 

Kevbone continues:

Once again…….I do no believe your view point to hold any weight until you climb this climb……or the very least hike up to the base and check it out. I promise you will not even be able to see the bolts…….

 

You also have a very short memory because this whole matter of knowing without directly experiencing has already been hashed out elsewhere. Climbing that route will not address my attitude regarding the problems I have with its very existence. Remember this book? When you learn to read, give it a look:

 

 

By the way, I also have opinions on other mountains I haven't climbed, for example, Mt. Everest: too crowded and trendy, would cost more than I'd like to spend to climb it, too much garbage, etc. Whatever....

 

Time to move on to something else...