Mt. Fund Aids All-Star Pakistani Women's Climb

[Sherri]

Well said.

 

 

[minx]

i think motomagik is my favorite poster of the day. well said.

 

muffy, i know you're stirring the pot. it's a big pot to stir when it comes to this subject.

[sk]

Thanks Sherri!

 

I think that we are putting too much stock into the political "what if's". There is so much going on in these countries that I seriously doubt a project of this size would have any large repercussions. Thats speculation of course. What I see is an amazing opportunity to inspire a handful of women, give them an opportunity that they would probably never experience otherwise, and maybe have a longstanding effect on their lives. Whats not to support?

 

it is statements like this that help me to understand why despite all americans do to "help" other countries, that we are the most hated country on the planet. we think we are so much better and smarter and have i all figured out.

 

 

i think it is a great idea to go and climb with people who want to and to teach them and maybe even help them set up a business if you you want to. but do you have to be so condesending about it?

 

muslim women have been surviving against all odds for centeries before there was such a thing as the USA. and likely they are stronger, more fit, and spritualy more powerful than any of us could hope to be.

 

its like californication to the next level.

[motomagik]

Thanks Sherri!

 

I think that we are putting too much stock into the political "what if's". There is so much going on in these countries that I seriously doubt a project of this size would have any large repercussions. Thats speculation of course. What I see is an amazing opportunity to inspire a handful of women, give them an opportunity that they would probably never experience otherwise, and maybe have a longstanding effect on their lives. Whats not to support?

 

it is statements like this that help me to understand why despite all americans do to "help" other countries, that we are the most hated country on the planet. we think we are so much better and smarter and have i all figured out.

 

 

i think it is a great idea to go and climb with people who want to and to teach them and maybe even help them set up a business if you you want to. but do you have to be so condesending about it?

 

muslim women have been surviving against all odds for centeries before there was such a thing as the USA. and likely they are stronger, more fit, and spritualy more powerful than any of us could hope to be.

 

its like californication to the next level.

 

So, if the guides participating in this project were from Canada, or Europe, would this project be less controversial?

 

You're right, America is hated over seas. Because we wage war on innocent countries and kill thousands of people for our own selfish political agenda and hide it under a guise of "bringing democracy to oppressed nations". I think comparing this to this project is a bit of a stretch. The guides going there are going to teach whoever wants to learn, they are not forcing anything on anyone.

[archenemy]

I see your point, Muffy, about the potentially discriminating nature of packaging something as "for women only" or "for men only," but in this particular instance it appears to be an effective strategy for reaching across a societal barrier(one which would not otherwise permit women exposure to the sport of climbing).

 

I'm not familiar enough with the specifics of the politics or religious hurdles involved in an undertaking such as this, but I applaud the program and its goals.

 

Who knows if this will result in breaking some of the barriers these women face in their day-to-day lives, especially in terms of moving into traditionally male-dominated roles or endeavours, but if it precipitates the discovery of her own personal power in just one women's life, it's a success.

 

I think the nature of climbing provides excellent opportunities for growth and empowerment. Look at how well we all turned out.

 

Thanks for sharing this important issue with us here, DeC. And keep up the good work.

 

I have not yet read beyond this post, so forgive me if what I'm laying down here has already been said.

 

I agree with Sherri on this. Women, especially women who have little experience in an atmosphere of equality with men, cannot be expected to suddenly behave "liberated" when still in the company of men. They have not been exposed to an environment that supports them as equal individual human beings yet and will most likely still feel secondary to men in the group.

 

I think an analogy (albeit a weak on) to this in America might be girls in the classroom. Girls' voices are generally silenced by about sixth grade (no fault of teachers--this is a social thing we learn). Yet, if girls get put in an all-girl class during the difficult years around puberty, they speak up again. I am sure the teachers in our cc.com group can give more info on this--pro or con.

 

But the important thing here is that a group that is accustomed to "sumiting" (I am trying to find a gentler word that oppressed) to the dominant group cannot be expected to suddenly act differently within there environment until the dynamics of that group have been changed. The easy first step is to allow women a voice of their own in a supportive environment of other women who know exactly how they feel. I understand this may feel exclusionary to men; but I have faith that men grasp the importance of the fact that women may need some time and experience in the company of other women.

[archenemy]

 

muslim women have been surviving against all odds for centeries before there was such a thing as the USA. and likely they are stronger, more fit, and spritualy more powerful than any of us could hope to be.

 

 

I am around muslim women twice a week for my Arabic class. I do not find them to be any stronger or fitter than any other women I have met here in America or anywhere else in the world. They are strong, but then, all women I meet are strong in surprising ways--even when they don't know it until they are tested in some way.

 

"Powerful" though, I disagree with. That is the problem. They are powerless in their home countries, powerless under their political structures, and powerless in various religious organizations. And this program may be a way to help change this problem.

[Kat_Roslyn]

Will the American guides that teach them be female or both?

[Dechristo]

All female

[tanstaafl]

http://www.alpineclub.org.pk/women_training.php

 

According to The Alpine Club of Pakistan site, it certianly sounds like the impetus behind this program comes from the Alpine Club of Pakistan, not from the US, and that the AAC is supporting them by sending some instructors.

[minx]

tanstaafl--nice look up!

[sk]

Thanks Sherri!

 

I think that we are putting too much stock into the political "what if's". There is so much going on in these countries that I seriously doubt a project of this size would have any large repercussions. Thats speculation of course. What I see is an amazing opportunity to inspire a handful of women, give them an opportunity that they would probably never experience otherwise, and maybe have a longstanding effect on their lives. Whats not to support?

 

it is statements like this that help me to understand why despite all americans do to "help" other countries, that we are the most hated country on the planet. we think we are so much better and smarter and have i all figured out.

 

 

i think it is a great idea to go and climb with people who want to and to teach them and maybe even help them set up a business if you you want to. but do you have to be so condesending about it?

 

muslim women have been surviving against all odds for centeries before there was such a thing as the USA. and likely they are stronger, more fit, and spritualy more powerful than any of us could hope to be.

 

its like californication to the next level.

 

So, if the guides participating in this project were from Canada, or Europe, would this project be less controversial?

 

You're right, America is hated over seas. Because we wage war on innocent countries and kill thousands of people for our own selfish political agenda and hide it under a guise of "bringing democracy to oppressed nations". I think comparing this to this project is a bit of a stretch. The guides going there are going to teach whoever wants to learn, they are not forcing anything on anyone.

 

i don't think the program is contraversal at all. i think most people support sending money suppies and ourselves at times to help people who we consider less fortunate than we are.

 

for the record, i was taught to climb by a woman, i like to climb with my women friends who climb and i really do think guides going any where to spread the good word of climbing to whoever wants it is a good idea. I also think that often times we blindly support what seems to be a great idea with out taking a moment to look at things from perhaps a different percpective. so i asked my self, what doesn't jive for me hear?

 

p.s. i love how easy it is to stir shit up just by not agreeing with the status quoe. interesting conversation. I will be interested in hearing about the project on it's completion. I hope they bother to follow up with the women they help over the next 20 or 30 years.

[mtnfund]

Nice conversation here. To clarify and respond to a couple of your questions. This project is with the invitation of the Pakistan Alpine Club. They wanted assistance teaching women as social customs in Pakistan make it nearly impossible for men, which is nearly 100% of the Pakistan Alpine Club, to offer such instruction. This is an important thing for you to know, this is not a case of westerners going to Pakistan to tell them what they need. These women were invited to go. The idea of someones brother or other relative teaching is impractical. There will be as many as 100 women in the class with 15 actually doing a summit bid. To use local relatives would require a small army of brothers and cousins and, I think also in some ways perpetuate, however unintenionally, the myth that women cannot do what men can. Particularly in the mountains, this has been shown to be untrue. Having women as role models, as "what is possible" is a good thing.

 

This is also not about westernizing anyone. The project is not at all interested in discussions of religion, customs or the relative rightness or wrongness of one society versus another. Pakistani's can sort these things out just fine on their own. The women guides are providing a technical teaching service which has been requested by Pakistan. Women do not all wear the berka, fyi.

 

Greg Mortenson of the Central Asia Institute has demonstrated for over a decade that we westerners can educate women in Pakistan and not interfere with the norms of the country. Many men are in favor of education for the countries women. The religion of the country does not prohibit this per se, though some less moderate versions of the faith may not embrace it, the mainstream does. If you don't know about Greg, see this link, read his book, learn Greg Mortenson and Pakistan

 

Yes, whomever asked, The Mountain Fund does work in the US. We support the Hike for Youth program in Denver that raises money every year for at-risk youth programs in that community. Our partnership with Osprey Packs, to "Pass on the Passion" has landed backpacks (50) in the hands of Outdoor Outreach, and excellent program in San Diego and the Maywood Organization in Wisconsin who runs outdoor programs for disadvantaged kids. We are currently talking to Outdoor Outreach about starting a program in partnership with them here in our hometown of Albuquerque, New Mexico where at present no outdoor programs for at-risk youth operates.

 

The reality of helping people in other countries is two-fold. First, as Greg Mortenson has shown decidely, if you want security at home, build schools, not bombs, it's simple, clear and effective. Because so much of the world is so poor, you can get a great deal of bang for the charity buck in places like Nepal, Pakistan, Peru and most of Central Asia. Seven out of ten of the world's poor, for example, live in SE Asia where average wages are less than $2.00 a day. Societies that have 85% of the population working as subsistence farmers (Nepal) on $2.00 a day or less can realize huge improvements in the quality of life, such as lower infant mortality rates and increased food security for very little money. The KFK clinic we run in Goljung,Nepal is a good example. For about $10,000 a year we provide primary health care to over 7,000 people. That's a small investment per person to bring basic health and public health services to three villages. One can argue all day about helping them versus helping us.

 

I can tell you this much about us. Our poor live,for the most part, as well as the middle class in Nepal. My day job (how I afford to run Mountain Fund) is the management of 23 low-income housing projects in three states. For our residents we must maintain the physcial state of the property in near new condition at all times, provide supportive services and programs that add to the quality of life of our residents and spend more money on the maintenance and management of the property than any sane for-profit landlord would ever dream of. Our residents have access to food stamps, social security, food commodities programs, free or reduced cost transportation to doctors offices, medicare or medicaid supplements to offest medical costs and much, much more. Our residents, by the way, pay 30% of their income as rent, the Dept. of HUD pays the rest. (you)

 

In places like Nepal there are no such safety nets for the poor. There isn't government housing, welfare, food stamps, etc. There isn't workers comp insurance either. When my friend Kul Bahadur lost half of both his feet to frostbite working as a porter there was nothing. He was of course not able to work as a porter with half of both fit missing. No one sent him checks to sustain him as a disabled person. No ADA rules made places of work accessible to him, no job training program taught him a new profession and helped him find work. Kul is married and has a family, he was the only source of support for this family. But, when Kul was injured there were no sources of support for him. We, even our poor, have it so much better here that one cannot even have a conversation that is intelligent about the relative status of our poor versus their poor.

 

If you love the mountains, if you've ever been to Central Asia to climb, or Nepal or Peru you have seen first-hand the poverty and hopefully been moved to give something back to the countries that every year so graciously host our efforts to visit their mountains. That's what we are all about here at Mountain Fund. Since someone will sooner or later raise this issue, 90% of our income goes to support the programs we work with around the world. Only 10% supports us and as Dechristo already pointed out, we aren't paid. We don't even get our travel expenses paid to go to Nepal, or Peru, etc.

 

My advice in closing - Don't just climb mountains --- MOVE THEM

 

scott

 

[sk]

that was exactly the kind of information i was hoping someone would provide.

 

 

thank you for answering so many of the questions raised so throughly.

 

just out of curioisty are any of the low income housing projects you run in the PNW??

 

when my boys and i lost everything it was very difficult for me to get any assistance from the state. the only reason we survived was the graciousness of friends and family, and my landlord for 9 years. he did not rais my rent the whole time i lived there and was suportive and understanding while i was working my way up at my job. granted i know i have it good becuase i did survive and i was able to get off food stamps and welfare in less than 60 days. but had my parents not had the money to help me pay rent and electricy i would not have had them as i could not get enough cash assistance from the state. i only needed 2 months. it was absolutly the most mortifying terrible frightening time in my life. so you are correct we certinly have it better than other countires do, but that doesn't make it fun.

[mtnfund]

You are most welcome and I am happy to reply to any and all questions you have. I am in NM not the PNW and around 1500 units or so last time I counted. I am full time on loan to Mountain Fund and not really involved any more with my real estate company, www.macinc.net. It still pays me, for reasons unknown ;-) By the way, sorry to hear about your personal experiences. We are all closer to facing that then most of us will admit. The system is, or so it seems, set up to keep you from getting the benefits it is there to provide. In all the properties we manage we have a staff person who is an expert in the various government programs to help people figure out how to access the benefits that they have coming. It's one thing to be entitled, another to figure out the system and get anything. Your personal story I am afraid is all too typical.

[mtnfund]

Post deleted by mtnfund

[mtnfund]

Anytime any of you have questions you can post it here or contact me directly via The Mountain Fund site. Best to post here though so others can be informed too. Again, thank you all for such a wonderful, thoughtful discourse. scott

[mtnfund]

Whomever posted the comment below, check out a book called White Man's Burden, things will become clearer.

 

it is statements like this that help me to understand why despite all americans do to "help" other countries, that we are the most hated country on the planet. we think we are so much better and smarter and have i all figured out.

 

[Dechristo]

Scott, thanks for expanding upon and clarifying the information of the thread topic. It's great to see the mountaineering/climbing community give of their time and resources to people groups who inhabit the great mountain areas of this world that we draw our inspiration from.

 

btw, was the post you refer to in your last post deleted (moderated)?

[crackers]

Howdy Scott,

Nice post.

 

So do you actually have 100 women signed up? When I got your email, i talked to some friends in Turkey. After some discussion, we agreed it would be hard to find 100 women in Turkey to do/find time such a course, and that's a far richer society than Pakistan, although Pakistan does have far more climber tourists and a background in climbing. We excluded Army etcetera 'volunteered' participation.

 

How successful do you expect to be in getting participants from the Northern Areas?

 

graham

www.cilogear.com

[jnut]

Most of the participants will actually be college students from Islamabad. It will be a bit of a 'top down' approach this year, as the students families must support their going - and the reality is that the more well off families are the more able to do that they are. It is really hard to say what the reaction of others will be to the women who participate.

100 is a large number, but it is what the Alpine Club of Pakistan organizers are projecting. I would anticipate we end up with more like 60.

One event has already happened to start generating support and interest for the trip. Check out the DAWN article on it.

Are you doing a similar project in Turkey?

So glad to see this discussion - thanks for your interest, we are really excited about the trip!

-Janet Bergman, team member

 

 

 

[sk]

Most of the participants will actually be college students from Islamabad. It will be a bit of a 'top down' approach this year, as the students families must support their going - and the reality is that the more well off families are the more able to do that they are. It is really hard to say what the reaction of others will be to the women who participate.

100 is a large number, but it is what the Alpine Club of Pakistan organizers are projecting. I would anticipate we end up with more like 60.

One event has already happened to start generating support and interest for the trip. Check out the DAWN article on it.

Are you doing a similar project in Turkey?

So glad to see this discussion - thanks for your interest, we are really excited about the trip!

-Janet Bergman, team member

 

 

 

Will you clarify this for me? Are you saying the women who are being helped in this case are women who are already of privilege and already have options for college, career and freedom?

 

I think it is imperative in this kind of situation to have family support. That said, I think it is sad that it is not at this time possible to help the women who are in desperate need of assistance. Perhaps these women of means will find it in their hearts to pass along what they learn to help woman not born to privilege

 

[mtnfund]

This is in reply to Dechristo above a couple posts. Sorry, my error. The comment is above, not below. Someone posed the question why we are so hated when we give so much money. The post that was deleted is from where I posted something twice. Never said I was the sharpest tool in the shed. Scott

Edited April 27, 2007 by mtnfund

[sk]

This is in reply to Dechristo above a couple posts. Sorry, my error. The comment is above, not below. Someone posed the question why we are so hated when we give so much money. The post that was deleted is from where I posted something twice. Never said I was the sharpest tool in the shed. Scott

 

I didn't ask why. I made a statement of oppinion. i am interested in the book you sugested and may pick it up.

[jnut]

Will you clarify this for me? Are you saying the women who are being helped in this case are women who are already of privilege and already have options for college, career and freedom?

first off, privilege, college, career and freedom do not necessarily all go hand in hand - in a place like pakistan especially.

but yes, that is what i am saying (though there will be other women involved as well). we have tons of ideas of where it could go in the future - such as the women training other women, as you mentioned. it is just impossible to tell what will happen after this year. but that is not a good enough reason NOT to proceed with the project.

 

[sk]

Will you clarify this for me? Are you saying the women who are being helped in this case are women who are already of privilege and already have options for college, career and freedom?

first off, privilege, college, career and freedom do not necessarily all go hand in hand - in a place like pakistan especially.

but yes, that is what i am saying (though there will be other women involved as well). we have tons of ideas of where it could go in the future - such as the women training other women, as you mentioned. it is just impossible to tell what will happen after this year. but that is not a good enough reason NOT to proceed with the project.

 

thank you for the clarification. I wish you all the best of luck and i hope good things come of the project. I do hope there is some kind of follow up to see what kind of effect this program has.