Proper Belay Technique

[Kat_Roslyn]

 

 

Proper belay:

 

 

[Kat_Roslyn]

More importantly, where can I buy a rainbow harness. . ?

[Cobra_Commander]

that cat fight footage is incredible! nice installment

[pope]

Ask your buddy Todd Skinner about his new timer/ new "skewl" belay loop.

 

If you were going for humor Dwayner, you might double check it cause you come off sounding like a cold, mean spirited (insert rude word here).

 

Which I'm pretty sure you are not.

 

Regards;

 

Bill

 

I'm pretty sure he was not. Bringing up the recent Skinner accident is relevant because central to Dwayner's argument is that the belay loop is an additional and unnecessary weak link in the chain. Sadly, Todd's tragic death supports the argument.

 

Regarding coaxial loading, my understanding is that a belay loop will diminish the problem by helping the 'biner twist into the vertical position instead of putting twist on the 'biner. However, if you don't treat the belay loop like you would any other runner and replace it FREQUENTLY, you're inviting catastrophic failure. My locking 'biner is always in the vertical plane, because I use a double wrap 2-inch swami belt in conjunction with commercial leg loops with a connecting strap (or whatever you call it) that comes up nearly as high as the swami. The 'biner clips around the swami and leg loop connection and is always in the correct position. I replace the swami every year (for about $5) and the leg loops whenever my ass gets too fat for the size I last purchased. I suspect my harness is stronger than anything commercially available (and much cheaper). Its strength does not rely on remembering to double back on a buckle and there is no belay loop.

[catbirdseat]

You guys are really serious about this hyper-redundancy. You should use two ropes with two belay device and two belay biners while you are at it.

 

How about just replacing your harness every couple of years, your rope every five years and your biners when they get a noticable groove worn in them?

 

We see one death by belay loop failure AND one in which it was known in advance that the loop was worn. There may be a couple of deaths from belay biner failure, maybe one or two from ropes being cut.

 

But look at the hundreds who have died from rapping off the ends of their ropes, from rockfall, from improper placement of protection, from exposure, from improper belays.

 

You have to focus on the things that matter the most. I think belay loops and harnesses are the least of a climber's worries, provided they are replaced when they should be. I just replaced my harness, in fact.

[Raindawg]

You guys are really serious about this hyper-redundancy. You should use two ropes with two belay device and two belay biners while you are at it.

 

Dude...that's so over the top. I'm sure you understand EXACTLY what me 'n pope be saying.

 

 

[chirp]

WOW! this thread would be better suited for the mountaineers board or rockclimbing.com

Agreed, this thread is the most inane I have seen here in a long

time.

Next we can have a 8 page thread on proper slackline rigging?

[counterfeitfake]

You have to focus on the things that matter the most.

 

Yeah guys. Can we get back to talking about which way the belay device should be turned?

 

I think you should spin the middle side topwise.

[Weekend_Climberz]

I learned the way it sounds like Pope and Raindawg currently are doing in boyscouts, and have only recently (last year) started using just the belay loop for rappelling and belaying. I think I'm gonna switch back. :tup:

[JosephH]

My old partner and I were just talking about how amazing the contrast is with back in the day when all we did was hip belay. The observation was that being belayed these days is one of the most dangerous things you can do given the rate people are being dropped - we're guessing something on the order of once every 15-60 minutes somewhere in the world 24x7x365. That illicited the second thought that back then it was a case of advanced skills and poor technology as opposed to today when advanced technology and poor skills is more the reality.

[G-spotter]

The observation was that being belayed these days is one of the most dangerous things you can do given the rate people are being dropped - we're guessing something on the order of once every 15-60 minutes somewhere in the world 24x7x365.

 

I award this the "most retarted non-statistic of the day".

[Gary_Yngve]

That illicited the second thought that back then it was a case of advanced skills and poor technology as opposed to today when advanced technology and poor skills is more the reality.

 

The Mountaineers still teach belaying by having students practice on drop towers with factor-1 falls of 100-lb weights, including with eyes closed. This is a far cry from the belay check at a gym where someone is "taught" by their buddies a few minutes before.

[JosephH]

The observation was that being belayed these days is one of the most dangerous things you can do given the rate people are being dropped - we're guessing something on the order of once every 15-60 minutes somewhere in the world 24x7x365.

 

I award this the "most retarted non-statistic of the day".

 

You might well - but think about it - the odds are pretty damn superb that someone in a gym or outside somewhere in the world is being "grigri'ed" at least once per hour. You can disagree, but it probably just means you have way, way more faith in the "average" [gym/sport] climber today than I and my partner do.

[G-spotter]

Don't be so fucking obtuse Joe. Add up the number of hypothesized drops in one year from your statistic and it's around 9,000. Whereas the number of reported accidents is more like a dozen or two. Which means you exaggerate by MORE THAN TWO ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE.

 

But hey, 99% of statistics are bullshit. Right?

[Weekend_Climberz]

Belay devices are aid, so are statistics

[catbirdseat]

Don't be so fucking obtuse Joe. Add up the number of hypothesized drops in one year from your statistic and it's around 9,000. Whereas the number of reported accidents is more like a dozen or two. Which means you exaggerate by MORE THAN TWO ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE.

 

But hey, 99% of statistics are bullshit. Right?

Dru, the vast majority of these incidents are NOT reported, because they don't result in serious injury. I was dropped once in the gym. It knocked the wind out of me, but I was okay because I landed on foam on my back. It wasn't reported.

 

I agree that Joseph must have pulled his stat right out of thin air. I've been a member of a climbing gym for a couple years now, with about 100 visits and have never witnessed a drop.

Edited March 9, 2007 by catbirdseat

[Blake]

yeah, most aren't reported, but Joe's figure still seems ridiculous IMO.

[JosephH]

yeah, most aren't reported, but Joe's figure still seems ridiculous IMO.

 

You're both kidding right? How many folks do you think get dropped annually at the PRG? How many at the half dozen or so gyms in Oregon? How many at those gyms and all the outdoor venues in Oregon? You can bet your ass that it's not a small number. Now add up all the gyms and climbing venues in the U.S. and you're probably looking at your 9k figure annually in the U.S. alone. Injuries from being dropped are more than likely underreported easily by an order of magnitude or more with only the most serious ever reported. Throw in the EU, Asia, S.A., Australia, and the old Soviet Block and I suspect your more like 20-30k drops per year. Do all of them result in reportable injuries? No, but if true and full reporting numbers were availabe being dropped while belayed would no doubt make being belayed the most dangerous part of climbing on a statistical basis.

[rob]

Shit, you're right. I'm gonna stop getting belayed, wtf am I doing taking these risks???!!

 

Gulp, my partners are not only belaying me, but belaying me with their...BELAY LOOPS! Oh nos! I'm gonna die!

Edited March 9, 2007 by robmcdan

[Raindawg]

Hey Cathead:

 

Let me ask you again...would you tie into your beloved belay loop?

[counterfeitfake]

you guys are dorks

[catbirdseat]

Hey Cathead:

 

Let me ask you again...would you tie into your beloved belay loop?

It is strong enough but I don't tie into it because the rope would get in the way of my belay device. But think of it this way- whether you use the belay loop for belaying or rappelling, it never sees as much loading as your two tie in loops would in a fall, and that is the main reason why you tie into the tie in loops, that and because there is no reason not to.

 

And Raindawg, do you know what a cathead is? It's what a ship's anchor was secured to when not in use. They used to call it "catting the anchor".

[dmuja]

I honestly believe its best to teach the hip belay to beginners first so they really understand what a "belay" is and arnt so gadget-focussed. Then belay devices make more sense to them I think. Plus I prefer strong partners myself, and a hip belay is a good litmus test though not pratical or safe for all routes of coarse. By da way, any a yoo limp wristed homos ever drop me, an I'll kEEa ya!

[Raindawg]

Cathead say:

that is the main reason why you tie into the tie in loops, that and because there is no reason not to.

 

And there is no reason why not to belay and rappel from the same place, directly from your tie-in points.

 

 

I honestly believe its best to teach the hip belay to beginners first so they really understand what a "belay" is and arnt so gadget-focussed. Then belay devices make more sense to them I think.

 

This is exactly how I teach belaying. I start with the traditional hip belay...they learn the concept of belaying very effectively, and then I add "the toys". There is a good chance that they'll never use the hip belay on their own, but at least they won't become a slave to some little device they might drop, forget or whatever, and become rescue-bait....the hip-belay is an important technique in one's alpine "bag-of-tricks" in case of need, or for expediency, as I occasionally use it.