falling on pro to learn better placement

[octavius]

I read a thread/post here last year describing a trad lead training technique where the climber was rope soloing with a fixed top rope backup, and placing trad and falling on it to better learn how effective placements are. Does anybody remember this thread/post? I've used search a dozen times now to try to find it but am having no luck.

 

Regards,

octavius

[G-spotter]

I can't think of a dumber technique.

[StevenSeagal]

I can't think of a dumber technique.

 

Oh I don't know, maybe doing it without the top rope backup would be a little dumber?

[G-spotter]

Naw, that'd just be rope soloing, less of a clusterfuck.

 

But why not just place gear not far off the ground, hop in the aiders and then give it a good bounce test?

[octavius]

But why not just place gear not far off the ground, hop in the aiders and then give it a good bounce test?

Makes sense. I thought the thread had lots of insight, which is why I want to find it.

[kevbone]

But why not just place gear not far off the ground, hop in the aiders and then give it a good bounce test?

Makes sense. I thought the thread had lots of insight, which is why I want to find it.

 

I used to solo aid on top rope, you get to hang on the gear and bounce all you like. On top rope. Also is good for learning how to use hooks in the safety of top rope.

 

Don’t listen to G-spotter. He is trolling your comments.

 

[smithisheaven]

Hey dru, because then you would hit the ground if it did not hold. Wake up dru. Its a smart way to test gear. You call that a dumb technique. What about yours. Fall to ground if gear not,hold me smart. Even a very short fall to the dirt bouncing on your daisy can break things we climbers like to use like ankles. As always input with no use, just rackin up the post count eh b.

[G-spotter]

So you are out there

 

1)rope soloing

and

2)solo toproping

 

Somehow you have the mad skillz to set up a solo toprope and rope solo rig (what are you using, clove hitches or a Soloist or what), and yet you don't know anything about gear placement. Suuuure OK. If that's you then I doubt your safety.

 

Basically this sounds like the type of thing Jamin would dream up .

 

Smithisheaven - try using a pad. Like you do every month.

[kevbone]

So you are out there

 

1)rope soloing

and

2)solo toproping

 

Somehow you have the mad skillz to set up a solo toprope and rope solo rig (what are you using, clove hitches or a Soloist or what), and yet you don't know anything about gear placement. Suuuure OK. If that's you then I doubt your safety.

 

Basically this sounds like the type of thing Jamin would dream up .

 

Smithisheaven - try using a pad. Like you do every month.

 

Moderator's, will you curb this please? Dru made a mistake he thought this was in spray.

 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2007 by kevbone

[octavius]

Somehow you have the mad skillz to set up a solo toprope and rope solo rig (what are you using, clove hitches or a Soloist or what), and yet you don't know anything about gear placement. Suuuure OK.

I don't recall this as being a technique used by people that don't know anything about gear placement, rather a technique to get faster at setting secure placements that the climber can trust.

[Off_White]

then you would hit the ground if it did not hold.

 

Oh, are you a faithful devotee of Dru's trip reports too?

[G-spotter]

Somehow you have the mad skillz to set up a solo toprope and rope solo rig (what are you using, clove hitches or a Soloist or what), and yet you don't know anything about gear placement. Suuuure OK.

I don't recall this as being a technique used by people that don't know anything about gear placement, rather a technique to get faster at setting secure placements that the climber can trust.

 

You can do that standing on the ground and not have to fuck around with two separate ropes.

[kevbone]

I don't recall this as being a technique used by people that don't know anything about gear placement, rather a technique to get faster at setting secure placements that the climber can trust.

 

Exactly......in the first 6 months of my climbing, I used to go out to Rocky Butte (the summit, not rock climbing area) and park my car on top of the man made walls. I would fix my rope to my axle of my car and rap over the wall, about 40 feet down. Then aid back up the wall, using hooks, nuts and cams. I could fully bounce and load my gear and not worry about getting hurt. I used two pursik knots and backed up myself by tying knots in the rope. It made is almost impossible to get hurt. I learned a great deal about gear placements from this.

 

Excellent way to learn to place gear.

 

[G-spotter]

There are a couple great stories in ANAM about people anchoring to cars and the cars moving... skull

[rob]

As a new leader myself, I've never liked the idea of falling on gear, on purpose -- even if it's to test the gear or placements. I'm no hardman, and most of the leads in my ability do NOT have clean falls.

 

Also, I think learning to lead climb SOLO is a pretty dumb idea. I think you are better off just climbing within your ability and having an experienced leader clean your gear and give critique. The best practice for lead climbing is lead climbing.

 

Maybe leading some easy aid pitches on toprope (with a belay! Not solo) might be a good way to learn to place gear with less risk. But I still wouldn't fall on purpose.

 

Personally, I think learning to judge the quality of a placement by visual inspection, yank-tests, etc. is more practical. This is how you will test gear in the real world, you will not be able to fall on it to test it.

[smithisheaven]

"dru made a mistake" not the first time. When I first started leading Trad we would set up a toprope then lead on a second rope placing gear as we went knowing that if we fell the tr would hold us.

Gave us good expereince at placing gear and checking for placements without the added grip of really falling on gear. We though it was smart and it seemed to work well.

We did it for like 5, 6 times on easier routes then when we felt we had good knowledge of how gear worked we went for a real lead on the same route. I know several who have used this tech 2 get started and its a good 1.

All u hard boys out there may snicker, but remmember u have to start leading somewhere and why not so you dont get hurt. Save that until later when you can go out with dru and hit the deck. Did he say pad, haha he uses 1 every day. Bouldering trash.

[kevbone]

As a new leader myself, I've never liked the idea of falling on gear, on purpose -- even if it's to test the gear or placements. I'm no hardman, and most of the leads in my ability do NOT have clean falls.

 

Also, I think learning to lead climb SOLO is a pretty dumb idea. I think you are better off just climbing within your ability and having an experienced leader clean your gear and give critique. The best practice for lead climbing is lead climbing.

 

Maybe leading some easy aid pitches on toprope (with a belay! Not solo) might be a good way to learn to place gear with less risk. But I still wouldn't fall on purpose.

 

Personally, I think learning to judge the quality of a placement by visual inspection, yank-tests, etc. is more practical. This is how you will test gear in the real world, you will not be able to fall on it to test it.

 

 

Rob, I agree with most of what you said. Best way to learn to lead and place gear is to do it. I don’t thing that is what this thread is about. “Falling on pro to learn better placement” is the title.

 

As far as solo vs not solo. Boy…..when you add a second person to the top rope you are trusting…..well, a second person. With the system I used, it was almost impossible to get hurt. With three back ups, I felt same enough, and I was able to critique my placements by actually seeing if they were good or not by testing them right then and there.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

 

 

[octavius]

I've had experienced leaders check my placements, and I agree that is a great part of the process of learning. This thread started because I was looking for a specific thread/post I had seen here last year and was hoping others might recall it and who wrote up the section on training by falling on pro, with a fixed toprope backup.

 

I agree you could just stand on the ground and test individual pieces, but that is different than placing gear as you climb and getting the time down on the entire climb.

 

My placements are very solid, I'm just trying to get faster at it and know that for me part of what is taking a while is that I spend a lot of time looking for the right piece, the perfect placement for it, and checking it a bunch of times before I move on. Going solo, for me, seems like a way I can train at my own pace, and just work on some routes over and over again, and practice getting faster at it... and not have to think about weather my partner is getting bored waiting for me. Also, until I've actually fallen on a piece, even if an experienced leader tells me it was a great placement... I'm the kind of person what won't believe it 100% unless I've found out for myself.

 

[edit]

Just found that a kind soul sent me a PM with the thread/post I was recalling:

http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/565409/page/0/fpart/2

 

My memory of the section wasn't perfect, which was one of the reasons I wanted to read it again.

Edited February 27, 2007 by octavius

[JosephH]

I personally wouldn't recommend such an approach as you just have a bit too much going on and the falls would be way too contrived. If you have a fixed top rope then to fall on a lead piece you'd have to get above it and then give yourself enough top rope slack so the top rope would only kick in if the piece blew. That would be a lot of slack and a pretty good fall on that fixed top rope. If you do decide to use this technique anyway, be sure and use a grigri on the fixed top rope - don't use a minitraxion or ascender-like device - you don't want to end up taking what would essentially be a lead-like fall onto one of those devices.

 

In general the best way to learn to lead and place gear is by seconding experienced climbers. In lieu of that the next best thing is walking around the base of a rock placing gear and testing it with an aider or slings. And off course, aiding (solo or with a partner) is a superb way to learn about placing gear.

 

[ Edit: Reading your post above I'd say just get out and swap leads with more experienced climbers and get some serious yardage in. And do some aid climbing to get intimate with the pro. In your case as you describe it I'd definitely skip all the rope shennanigans with the possible exception of solo aiding (minus the top rope) ]

[G-spotter]

Leading the same route several times in a row, your pro placement is going to speed up not because your skills improve but because you start to remember what piece fitted where the last time. I think it would be better for you to improve your speed by placing pro on the ground as quickly as you can and then checking it for security rather than messing around solo with two different ropes. And especially falling onto some sketchy solo rig with a second second solo backup. Taking lead falls on many self-belay rigs, like on the Ushba Basic or Petzl Shunt, can cut the rope at as little as 5 kN

[rob]

My placements are very solid, I'm just trying to get faster at it and know that for me part of what is taking a while is that I spend a lot of time looking for the right piece, the perfect placement for it, and checking it a bunch of times before I move on. Going solo, for me, seems like a way I can train at my own pace, and just work on some routes over and over again, and practice getting faster at it... and not have to think about weather my partner is getting bored waiting for me. Also, until I've actually fallen on a piece, even if an experienced leader tells me it was a great placement... I'm the kind of person what won't believe it 100% unless I've found out for myself.

 

 

I dunno, man. I don't like it. I guess it could be done safely, if done correctly and competently. You'd have to be very comfortable rope-soloing.

 

When you were ready to fall, would you let slack out of your toprope to allow you to fall past the gear? And then fall on the lead rope, counting on your TR to backup the fall? Yikes.

 

Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable with a setup like that. I wouldn't feel comfortable taking falls in the first place since the routes I climb are probably ankle-breakers, but even if I could climb higher grades, I wouldn't feel comfortable taking leader falls on a rope-solo system by myself. But that's me. You may feel more confident with your skills than I.

 

Now, the real question is this: If you just want to work on your chops and improve your leading, and you're comfortable rope-soloing, what's with the intentional falls? I do not think falling will improve your climbing ability or even your ability to assess good protection. Unless you want practice falling.

[counterfeitfake]

You can do whatever you want. The whole double rope toprope solo thing sounds totally goofy to me, but if it's your favorite idea, what the hell, go for it, if you don't screw it up it's probably safe. Don't screw it up.

 

I think straight-up aid climbing is the best way to go for what you are trying to accomplish. It's safe, you should be able to do it safely even if you're soloing. Bounce-test every piece and you'll prove the gear works. Clean the gear yourself and you'll get an even better idea for how the placements worked.

 

Intentionally falling on gear is a really bad idea, ever. Especially when you can generate similar forces by bounce-testing while aiding.

[octavius]

Thanks everybody. Yeah I plan to swap a lot of leads this season, I did my first aid lead a couple of weekends ago at city park and got to bounce test plenty of nuts (in the pouring rain no less). I'll get in more practice just placing gear near the ground and bouncing testing it. I'll do more research into the 2 rope method... I just don't see it as a big hassle as long as it is done right and setup bomber safe.

[kevbone]

I did my first aid lead a couple of weekends ago at city park and got to bounce test plenty of nuts (in the pouring rain no less

 

:tup:

[RuMR]

Dru's right...just go climbing...sack up, throw lots of gear in and go for it...always put waaaaay more gear in at first, build mini-anchors if you will...as time goes on, your skill and the time to place stuff will increase...you gotta learn sometime and its a risky sport and if you can't accept that its part of the game, go take up golf...

 

you hit the deck cuz you couldn't figure out how to get a piece in? Well, that's just removing a dumbass gene from the pool, imo...