Guide books

[kevbone]

“Notice, this is not in spray”

 

The Ultimate Everything thread got me thinking. Something G-spotter said. None of the pitches are 3 or 4 star. Well, wouldn’t that be an opinion? I would think so. Who gets to rate a climb with stars? The person who wrote the guide?

 

Personally I don’t like guides that star routes. Which seems to be in every book. It seems like starred routes direct climbers to certain routes. I would prefer more of a word of mouth preference than to see 5 star routes. Which brings up the next question, what constitutes the amount of stars? I would think the rock quality, how good the pro is, and how positive the holds are would constitute a star. G-spotter thinks none of the pitches on the UE are three stars, I personally would disagree. The UE has perfect rock with great pro. Maybe the pitches are not that long but would that alone bring the number of stars down?

 

I am currently working on a guide for a recently developed climbing area. I am taking out all the adjectives like “great climb”, “must do” or the notorious “Classic”. There will be no stars. It’s just a list of climbs from left to right, the grade, what gear you will need and how to find it.

 

Edited January 8, 2007 by kevbone

[kevbone]

One other thing, what kinds of star system do you like? 3, 4 or 5 stars?

[Cobra_Commander]

well for your climbing area it would only need to go to 1 star bwaaaahHAH

[kevbone]

well for your climbing area it would only need to go to 1 star bwaaaahHAH

 

I do not own it. bwaaaahHAH back!

[DCramer]

Forget stars - Create a 1 thru 4 system with increments every .1! Think of a GPA. That route is a 3.2! No, it's a 3.3! To really be value added a guidebook must be fodder for debate!

 

Seriously, in line with your viewpoint perhaps just a notation indicating that a specific route is recomended will suffice.

[kevbone]

Forget stars - Create a 1 thru 4 system with increments every .1! Think of a GPA. That route is a 3.2! No, it's a 3.3! To really be value added a guidebook must be fodder for debate!

 

Seriously, in line with your viewpoint perhaps just a notation indicating that a specific route is recomended will suffice.

 

I suppose some sort of recommendation would need to be there?

 

I wrote into one of the routes in the new area "not recommended" due to large loose block. In that circumstance the danger to the route overrode my desire not to direct people to climbs.

 

I mean how many times have you climbed a route without stars on it in the guide and thought it was great? Ever been to Jtree? Happens all the time there.

 

[TrogdortheBurninator]

Your word of mouth system is great if you are a local with word of mouth access, but then you probably don't need a guidebook anyway. Star ratings are great for vistors to an area. At the very least, give a recommended climbs list (The falcon Tahoe book was like this but I'd prefer stars). I want to prioritize when I visit an area. Star ratings seem to be very subjective to the area, and don't need to correlate between areas. It also seems that stars tend to migrate non systematically towards the higher grades (usually newer routes). Lots of 5.11 3-4 star single pitches, but hardly any 5.8-5.9 3-4 star single pitches (unless put up by author).

 

Especially on chossy basalt, I think there is a certain safety premise behind the star ratings as these routes tend to have the best rock/pro.

[kevbone]

Your word of mouth system is great if you are a local with word of mouth access, but then you probably don't need a guidebook anyway. Star ratings are great for vistors to an area. At the very least, give a recommended climbs list (The falcon Tahoe book was like this but I'd prefer stars). I want to prioritize when I visit an area. Star ratings seem to be very subjective to the area, and don't need to correlate between areas. It also seems that stars tend to migrate non systematically towards the higher grades (usually newer routes). Lots of 5.11 3-4 star single pitches, but hardly any 5.8-5.9 3-4 star single pitches (unless put up by author).

 

Especially on chossy basalt, I think there is a certain safety premise behind the star ratings as these routes tend to have the best rock/pro.

 

I suppose its nice to know where the great climbs are instead of good climbs. But once again, how many times have I climbed a non starred route at the tree and had it be great? At least a dozen. Of course the reason I climbed the non starred route was because I was trying to climb something different.

[northvanclimber]

the other day i started making a list of climbs in kevin mclean's squamish guidebook that had 3 (or more) stars in an effort to psych myself up for the upcoming season of climbing. i then took a look through squamish select to see if that book recommended the same climbs... interestingly, the two books often matched, suggesting the climbs were actually considered by many to be good, except for a couple climbs that hardly got any mention in squamish select.

 

now, not to knock kevin mclean, because he seems like a great guy and has obviously gone through a lot of work to put together those guidebooks, but all those "extra" three star routes were put up by him! bias? nooooooooooo... lol. but seriously, rating routes is pretty subjective. there are lots of great routes that never get any stars but are still fun to do.

[kevbone]

there are lots of great routes that never get any stars but are still fun to do.

 

Exactly!

 

I guess there is a place for stars and a place not to add them.

[fgw]

I noticed that star ratings can imply different things in different areas. For example, in Watt's guidebook as the star rating drops, so does the soundness of the rock in the main area. In the Gorge, seems 1- or 2- star routes are still nice & on good rock though usually not as sustained as 3- to 4-stars ones.

[Rad]

In addition to ratings, guidebooks provide other clues to difficulty and quality within a grade.

 

1 - When was the route put up? (older routes are usually graded harder than newer routes).

 

2 - Who put up the route? Some routesetters are known for sandbags whereas others float the other way.

 

3 - Star ratings can sometimes give clues to difficulty too. 0-1 star routes may be one move wonders. Multiple star routes are more likely to be sustained or require multiple moves at the grade. I've found that the highest starred routes are often the ones that are hardest for the grade and on high-quality rock with the best moves. They are often the most memorable.

 

Area with the highest star overload I've seen: Owen's River Gorge. Books that could use stars: Beckey guides.

[pink_chalk]

Maybe with a smaller climbing area you can get away with not using star ratings. All you need is to find the route, have a general idea for climbing level and notice of obstacles. Someone could be having a pissed-off day, climb a four star route and call it one. Who cares, just climb

[RuMR]

wow...that's insightful...

[jshamster]

Stars or recommendations are great for a quick hit at a new area. Say you're hittin' the Leap for a day during your travels. I want to get the most quality in in a short amount of time.

That being said, it's usually pretty easy to get some good info from other climbers at an area. Often better than the respective guide book.

 

Cheers.

Jimbo

[pink]

puff, puff before every climb. i'm always seeing stars.

[kevbone]

 

1 - When was the route put up? (older routes are usually graded harder than newer routes).

 

2 - Who put up the route? Some routesetters are known for sandbags whereas others float the other way.

 

3 - Star ratings can sometimes give clues to difficulty too. 0-1 star routes may be one move wonders. Multiple star routes are more likely to be sustained or require multiple moves at the grade. I've found that the highest starred routes are often the ones that are hardest for the grade and on high-quality rock with the best moves. They are often the most memorable.

 

 

I agree with most of this, its just with no star ratings you would just have climb the route and see for yourself. You know, the whole "do it for yourself thing". That would be cool.

 

I would like to see all the grades come off all the climbs at the gym, It would take away most of the ego! And get people to try harder climbs.

 

[Drederek]

I don't mind the stars so much. They are just another clue to what you're getting into. I like the pg - x ratings because I've done a few r rated routes and I'm getting too old for it. Any guidebooks rating system is fine with me as long as its fairly consistent. Finding 5.6's at JT that my wife will enjoy can be problematic at times We've actually done some that were 5.6s!

[kevbone]

I don't mind the stars so much. They are just another clue to what you're getting into. I like the pg - x ratings because I've done a few r rated routes and I'm getting too old for it.

 

Stars and the PG-X rating are different in my book (no pun intended). Starrs tell the quality of a route and PG-X tells you how dangerous a route is.

[pink]

my starrs

[northwest_dad]

Oddly enough, self established areas are usually very biased in when the developer writes their descriptions. Especially ones that were supposed to be a secret until the developer wanted a pat on the back.......

 

Anyone every been to Jack's Canyon? *Presto!* you climb 5.12! I'd say, get a feel for the routes from others who have done them and include that info for the routes.

 

I say take your own advice and don't put any ratings difficulty or sketchyness so everyone will try harder climbs and not worry about anyones ego.

[kevbone]

Oddly enough, self established areas are usually very biased in when the developer writes their descriptions. Especially ones that were supposed to be a secret until the developer wanted a pat on the back.......

 

Anyone every been to Jack's Canyon? *Presto!* you climb 5.12! I'd say, get a feel for the routes from others who have done them and include that info for the routes.

 

I say take your own advice and don't put any ratings difficulty or sketchyness so everyone will try harder climbs and not worry about anyones ego.

 

i certanly dont care about ego. That why there will be no stars.

[kevbone]

Oddly enough, self established areas are usually very biased in when the developer writes their descriptions. Especially ones that were supposed to be a secret until the developer wanted a pat on the back.......

 

Anyone every been to Jack's Canyon? *Presto!* you climb 5.12! I'd say, get a feel for the routes from others who have done them and include that info for the routes.

 

I say take your own advice and don't put any ratings difficulty or sketchyness so everyone will try harder climbs and not worry about anyones ego.

 

i certanly dont care about ego. That why there will be no stars.

[chris]

Bone,

I appreciate the star system. On some trips my time is limited, and I want to have a good experience climbing there - the star system helps direct my attention to routes and walls that provide the best quality of the area.

Perhaps instead of stars you can make recommendations on what route to climb if you only have one day. Or two days. Or a week - and then leave the rest to time.

Guidebooks, like grades, are always subjective, and with time consensus will change opinions and your "must-do" ticklist will inevitably evolve into something else...

[kevbone]

Bone,

I appreciate the star system. On some trips my time is limited, and I want to have a good experience climbing there - the star system helps direct my attention to routes and walls that provide the best quality of the area.

Perhaps instead of stars you can make recommendations on what route to climb if you only have one day. Or two days. Or a week - and then leave the rest to time.

Guidebooks, like grades, are always subjective, and with time consensus will change opinions and your "must-do" ticklist will inevitably evolve into something else...

 

Damnit, why do you have to make sence? For major areas I can appreciate stars! Lord knows I have used them.